Latest post Wed, Sep 5 2012 3:25 AM by TVJohn. 13 replies.
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  • Fri, Aug 31 2012 1:39 AM

    • Terry Hopkins
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    What's Best 24p or 30p

    I want to know what's the best frame rate to shoot if my distribution is DVD and posibly Blu-Ray.

    The projects I'm working on are best suited for DVD, but I'm sure there will be a fair amount of customers that would like a Blu-Ray version. These are basicly How-To projects.  I don't need to shoot 24p for the filmic look. I don't think there is a real difference if I shoot 24p or 30p of a talking head, but I haven't really compared them, so I really don't know.

    My question is what works better and looks better for a customer when watching a DVD or a Blu-Ray on the their 46" widescreen TV? I've heard 30p doesn't work well with Blu-Ray. It seems there would be less work or should I say less encoding work if I shot 24p. So I guess my question is which one works better for DVD and hopefully BD distribution too?

    Thanks,

    P.S.  I shooting with consumer video cameras, such as the Canon Vixia HF S200 and HF S21.

    They shoot both 24p and 30p.

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  • Fri, Aug 31 2012 11:37 AM In reply to

    • BarkinMadd
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    Re: What's Best 24p or 30p

    If you have the equipment and the editing suite, you are in a position to judge for yourself, presumably. If you're just shooting talking heads then that's one thing but if you are shooting motion you need to be careful with 24p or it can look pretty bad if you don't shoot with 24p in mind - BTW - I'm no expert here, but I've heard this comment for experts on this forum.

    Also - I can't remember, but 30p doesn't sound like a valid framerate for BluRay (what resolution are you shooting - maybe 720p30 is valid, but not 1080p30 from what I recall)...

    Hopefully one of the experts will chime-in here to fill in the details ;-)

    Cheers

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    Steve

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  • Fri, Aug 31 2012 11:57 AM In reply to

    • Terry Hopkins
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    Re: What's Best 24p or 30p

    Thanks for the reply Steve.

    As far as resolution, I've always thought it best to shoot at the highest reslution, so I have been shooting at 1080. For DVD and BD would 720p be as good or better? 

    After posting last night I read where somenone tested 24p, 30p and 60i and I think it was specific to BD and he said the best quality was at 24p, but I don't recall him saying anything about fast motion.

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  • Fri, Aug 31 2012 6:31 PM In reply to

    • BarkinMadd
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    Re: What's Best 24p or 30p

    Hi Terry - Does the BluRay spec allow for 1080p30? I didn't think it did. Personally, I like the cadence of 24p - it's a bit jittery, particular if you are panning quickly - 30p tends to look smoother, but I always think it gives it more of a television look as opposed to film.

    Still waiting for the experts to chime in here ;-)

    Cheers

    Camera(s) PXW-X70, HDR-FX1, Hero 6 Black | MC 18.12.1 | QT 7.7.9 | Continuum 2019 | Sapphire 2019 | Mocha Pro 2019 | Titler Pro 6 | Windows 10 Pro x64... [view my complete system specs]

    Steve

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  • Fri, Aug 31 2012 6:39 PM In reply to

    • Pheral
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    Re: What's Best 24p or 30p

    Blu Ray does not support 30p.  It does support 24p.  I found this out by Googling "Blu Ray frame rates".

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  • Sat, Sep 1 2012 2:12 PM In reply to

    • TVJohn
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    Re: What's Best 24p or 30p

    Shooting in 30p, encoding that progressive to DVD yields an almost HD quality to the image. The judder associated with 24p makes it almost unusable in my opinion. Manufacturers of LCD panels tout higher refresh rates as a measure of picture quality, and they are fed a diet of 24p. rather contradicts...

    A better "cine" look is achieved with custom black levels, manual camera AGC settings, and shallow dept of field. 

    24p was easy to sell to people thinking that is all it takes to emulate high dollar cine.

    60p on the other hand. makes the most exquite product.

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  • Sat, Sep 1 2012 10:01 PM In reply to

    • Alessio.S
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    Re: What's Best 24p or 30p

    In similar circumstancies I prefer shoot and edit at 30p even if it is is not allowed for blue ray, the workaround is encode as 30i for the blue ray and at 30p for the dvd, I found this the better choice when you need the two formats without interlace or field ordering problems.

    Alessio

  • Mon, Sep 3 2012 6:29 PM In reply to

    Re: What's Best 24p or 30p

    TVJohn:
    Shooting in 30p, encoding that progressive to DVD yields an almost HD quality to the image.
     

    I shoot 30p all the time, export as QT reference, and encode my DVD's with AvidDVD  The results are excellent.   I also encode Blu-Rays from the same QT reference in AvidDVD and have always gotten good results, so I was quite surprised to read where 30p is not good with Blu-ray.  Whatever AvidDVD is doing in the transcoding, it's handling 30p just fine.

     

    TVJohn:

    A better "cine" look is achieved with custom black levels, manual camera AGC settings, and shallow dept of field. 

    24p was easy to sell to people thinking that is all it takes to emulate high dollar cine.

    I have never understood the allure of 24p?  IMHO, it's always best to caputure the maximum information with the camera--30p yields more frames of information than 24p.   The "filmic" look has very little to do with frame rate.   Cameras like Red have gamma curves that mimic film, along with higher resolution.   The only reason I would ever shoot 24p would be if the final project was going to be transfered to film and/or digitally projected in a theater with a 24fps projector.

     

     

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  • Tue, Sep 4 2012 2:16 AM In reply to

    • TVJohn
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    Re: What's Best 24p or 30p

    Terry, see if this highlighted Squeeze setting will pass Avid DVDit without transcoding. I use a similiar setting for EX=1R 30p footage with TmpGenc for progressive DVD output.


    Dell Display U2713HM(2560x1440), AMD FX8350 8core, AMD 990FX mobo, 32gig-DDR3-1600, Quadro K620/GTX260/core 216, Audigy2zs, 1TB SSD system drive, 2TB SATA... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Tue, Sep 4 2012 4:28 PM In reply to

    Re: What's Best 24p or 30p

    TVJohn:

    Terry, see if this highlighted Squeeze setting will pass Avid DVDit without transcoding. I use a similiar setting for EX=1R 30p footage with TmpGenc for progressive DVD output.

    John,

    I've never used Squeeze for DVD encoding.   I've let AvidDVD do the transcoding as well as the authoring and burning.    But next time I have a small project, I'll give it a try.

    Also  (I know this is somewhat off-topic), have you tried the Cine settings in the EX1R?   I use a picture profile with Cine 4 gamma curve, plus I've tweaked the black levels slightly.   It gives a more filmic look in 30p.  No need for 24p.

    MC 2018.4 with Symphony, Matrox MX02 Mini Max, Win 7 Pro, HP Z800 2x6-Core 3.2Ghz Xeon, 48GB ram, Quadro K4200, SanDisk Extreme 240GB SSD as system drive... [view my complete system specs]

    I have a fantastic editing assistant.  He stays by my side when I edit...doesn't talk too much...and thinks I'm a genius!    Check him out here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQVkYaaPO6g

  • Tue, Sep 4 2012 9:47 PM In reply to

    • Terry Hopkins
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    Re: What's Best 24p or 30p

    Thanks everybody for your replies. My current camera the Canon HF S200 shoots in 60i, PF24, PF30 and 24F.

    Not sure what the difference is between PF24 and 24F.

    I will have to play with all to see what works best. Most of my projects I plan to distribute on DVD, but I have always thought it best to shoot at the highest resolution so that I could also deliver on Blu-ray if need be. I haven't checked yet to see if this camcorder can shoot 720 60p, but maybe that would be best for both formats.

     

    Terry

    Intel i7, 12GB ram, Dual 23' monitors, Avid Media Composer 8.4 [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Sep 4 2012 10:02 PM In reply to

    • gumbaedit
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    Re: What's Best 24p or 30p

    pf24 is 24fps recorded over 60i (like film telecine to tape).  24f is recorded as 23.98fps true.  (or vice versa).

    It does not shoot 720p

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  • Tue, Sep 4 2012 10:10 PM In reply to

    • Terry Hopkins
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    Re: What's Best 24p or 30p

    Thanks, just finished googling the Canon HF S200 and saw it did not have 720 60p. But thanks for your info.

    Intel i7, 12GB ram, Dual 23' monitors, Avid Media Composer 8.4 [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Sep 5 2012 3:25 AM In reply to

    • TVJohn
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    Re: What's Best 24p or 30p

    Terry,

    I haven't tried the Cine settings in the EX,... lately I've been doing surgicial "tapings", some live...for the live casts, I have found that the Component output of the camera yields a far less "synthetic" look to the projected image. During some runthroughs I may explore your suggestion, thanks.

    Dell Display U2713HM(2560x1440), AMD FX8350 8core, AMD 990FX mobo, 32gig-DDR3-1600, Quadro K620/GTX260/core 216, Audigy2zs, 1TB SSD system drive, 2TB SATA... [view my complete system specs]

    Using MC 8.4. Avid FX6.4, Vegas Pro 15/ DVD Architect 6pro, DVDit6.4proHD, CCE Basic, TmpGe Express4, TmpGe Authoring Works 4, DVDLab-Studio. Sony EX-1R, Canon XH-A1, GL2, GL1, Canon EOS 60D

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