Latest post Mon, Dec 10 2012 2:07 PM by fkurz. 9 replies.
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  • Mon, Dec 10 2012 9:53 AM

    Dealing with Interlaced and Progressive

    WIth AMA linked source it's relatively straight forward to check for field movement and flag the field motion as interlaced and even the correct order if you are in an interlaced project and use field stepping.

    But if you are importing media then it's a lot more complex because you have to be in the correct i or P format for the project and you need to choose the correct field order on import. If you get it worng you have to delete the media and re-import.

    The attributes of the media created are then stored in that clip (as the video format and field order)

    But there doesn't seem any easy way to change it if it's wrong for imports. Unlike DS and FCP we can't change the field order of media in the system (without exporting QTrefs and re-importing etc)

    We're seeing a lot of content wrongly imported (or even AMA linked and rwrongly flagged) that then gets scaled or processed to bake in interlacing artefacts.

    Are others seeing these sorts of format errors due to lack of interlaced 3rd monitors on systems and more file based workflows?

    Is it time we had more MC tools to monitor and adjust these issues?

     

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  • Mon, Dec 10 2012 10:41 AM In reply to

    Re: Dealing with Interlaced and Progressive

    HI Pat

    I absolutely agree. - Its always a lottery for me and I cant look at feild order issues on my system (with no Pal Tv attached) until i make a DVD. Thats a lot of effort down the line to realise theres a fundemental issue at the footage import stage.

    I think a "simulate Tv playback button" would be helpful where when selected, the avid would give a representation of the visual effect of playing back the current footage on a television screen.

    Peter

    Windows 7 Pro 64, Intel i7 3.4 ghz cpu, 32 GIG DDR3, MC 8.4.5 Pro Tools 10 & 11 [view my complete system specs]

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  • Mon, Dec 10 2012 11:08 AM In reply to

    • BarkinMadd
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    Re: Dealing with Interlaced and Progressive

    I think it would be useful - absolutely.

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  • Mon, Dec 10 2012 11:27 AM In reply to

    • Bruno M
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    Re: Dealing with Interlaced and Progressive

    Pat, I feel your pain! I too am constantly faced with ignorance about interlacing or field order, which is why one of my prized posessions is my JVC HD CRT monitor.

    With my current projects I've been mainly running into problems with archive material and inserts from outside VFX artists/compositors. Most of my location material is shot progressive these days, so that doesn't pose a problem, but given that I need to deliver 50i, I find that many VFX people simply do not understand what I'm banging on about when I mention interlacing.

    When I ask for information about field order from the various archive libraries we deal with, I often get the reply that it was originally shot on film, so there's no fields to worry about. When I have been able to get more info on the archive in question, I find it is archived on 1 inch or another interlaced format and then digitised into the Quicktime that gets delivered to me. I'm often not able to get any further info into what was used to digitise this interlaced source or what settings were used. So, like you I'm forced into the suck-it-and-see approach.

    The issues with VFX can be a little more problematic. Apart from the fact that I find (in general)  their knowledge of interlacing and field order sketchy, most of them work with LCD/LED monitors, so they simply do not see what I'm seeing. Some of the problems are simply the wrong field order, and given that I've got them to supply the comps in DNX fast-import formats, it's easier for me to just re-import than for them to re-render. What really caused problems for me on a recent virtual studio comp was that the VFX artist had rendered the main studio field 1 and the shot of the Thames river (through a large window behind the presenters) field 2! It looked really lovely when seagulls flapped past the window!

    As to field detection software, I know that some other compositing software make a guess at the format of imported material, but I'm not sure how well you could rely on it. What is important is that you can simply change the field order (or remove it completely) in the file properties, and that's what's always been missing in MC. My guess is that when MC goes resolution-independent, it will then adopt the approach used in most other editing/compositing software and allow all the properites to be altered. Until then, I wonder how easy it would be for Avid's import menu to have a mini-viewer and partial import facility? You could then select a small section that would allow you to see the field order and just import that section for inspection. Squeeze has a similar fuction that allows you to quickly render a 5 second section to check your settings.

    Bruno

    HP Z800, HP G3 Studio, SonnetFusion RAID, Mojo DX, Symphony 2018.9, JVC DTV1910 HD tube monitor, HP Dreamcolor, Avid Artist Color [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Dec 10 2012 11:52 AM In reply to

    Re: Dealing with Interlaced and Progressive

    Bruno M:

    ... Until then, I wonder how easy it would be for Avid's import menu to have a mini-viewer and partial import facility? You could then select a small section that would allow you to see the field order and just import that section for inspection. Squeeze has a similar fuction that allows you to quickly render a 5 second section to check your settings.

    Bruno

    Bruno, I'm wondering why using AMA to check the field order isn't at least as good an option? Thanks.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Mon, Dec 10 2012 12:01 PM In reply to

    Re: Dealing with Interlaced and Progressive

    Not all sources can be AMA'd still so AMAisn't always the answer and many folks just don;t understand or get AMA (or are scared of it) so avoid it. This isn't helped by the AMA workflows and re-linking still being difficult for people to understand and get to work.

    The most frustrating problems are when the sources are imported (or AMA linked) wrong and the content is then scaled or an effect applied and the interlacing effects are then baked in. Making finishing impossible without stepping all the way back to the begining.

    It's great that new features are coming along with every release of MC but I'd really like to see some features and changes that make a difference to the mass market of users.

     

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

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  • Mon, Dec 10 2012 12:31 PM In reply to

    • Bruno M
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    Re: Dealing with Interlaced and Progressive

    BobbyMurcerFan:
    I'm wondering why using AMA to check the field order isn't at least as good an option?

    As Pat mentioned, not everything can be AMA'd. I get archive material in all sorts of formats and lengths, and I'm often using only a small portion of the whole archive. Using AMA to inspect and select the portion I need is a good alternative to waiting an hour for an import (only to discover the wrong field order) and this is what I try first. Unfortunately, some of the files I receive just won't play at all under AMA, or there are serious artifacts/ decompression problems which make viewing impossible. There's something else going on when you do a traditional import that correctly converts the footage in a way that AMA can't. That's why I thought of the partial import option in the traditional import menu.

    Bruno

    HP Z800, HP G3 Studio, SonnetFusion RAID, Mojo DX, Symphony 2018.9, JVC DTV1910 HD tube monitor, HP Dreamcolor, Avid Artist Color [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Dec 10 2012 1:06 PM In reply to

    Re: Dealing with Interlaced and Progressive

    Pat and Bruno, I understand better now, thanks. And I certianly do think that MC could use improvements in this area. FWIW, I've been using After Effects more and more things like inspecting and transcoding footage.

    What you should be able to do in AE is play and step through the footage in the Footage Window. (This window defaults to being closed but can be opened by using the Window Menu.) If in the Footage Window you don't see any stuttering when the footage is either played or is stepped through frame by frame, you know AE is using the correct field order.

    If there is stuttering, you can switch the field order in AE by right-clicking on the source and choosing Interpret Footage > Main. There you can change the field order.

    By doing the above, you should be able to determine the correct field order before starting the import in MC.

    Hope that helps a little.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Mon, Dec 10 2012 1:38 PM In reply to

    Re: Dealing with Interlaced and Progressive

    A viewable option would be useful but this can be automated. It's not that hard a task to compare the odd and even lines for temporal changes and detect progressive interlaced and even incorrect field order.

    There are software monitoring packages that do this available.

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

    Broadcast & Post Production Consultant / Trainer  VET

     

    T 07581 201248 | E pat@vet.co.uk | W www.vet.co.uk |


    Media Composer V8.2 Review Background Render

    -

    Follow me on Twitter Pat_H_VET

    Filed under:
  • Mon, Dec 10 2012 2:07 PM In reply to

    • fkurz
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    Re: Dealing with Interlaced and Progressive

    It also would be a real gain if you could correct flags that are set incorrectly by cameras if you use AMA for import.

    The Panasonic P2 cameras, we often use, are setting the flag to interlaced if you record 1080/25p and if you import the P2 cards with AMA, MediaComposer flags the material shot in 1080/25p as 1080/50i.

    If you cut that material in a 1080/25p project you always get those green dots in the time-line and you have to delete them manually to avoid deinterlacing the progressive format. Unfortunately if you do a consolidate the green dots reappear and you have to delete them again.

    So it would be very useful if you could re-flag the 1080/50i clips in the bin. for example with the "modify" function.

     

     

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