Latest post Sun, Mar 22 2020 2:43 PM by BenoitM. 14 replies.
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  • Tue, Mar 17 2020 11:13 PM

    • mcabery
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    10 bit question

    The more you know, the more you find out you don't know.  I recently purchased a Sony FX9 which is quite an upgrade from my elderly EX3.  One of the things I was most looking forward to was shooting in 10 bit and not having banding.  I did a timelapse last night with lots of blue sky in it and lo and behold I am seeing banding in Avid.  I did use the AVC I codec. I do not see the same issue in the Sony Catalyst Browse software.  I am using AMA link to bring these files in.  This one was shot in SLog3.  I have my monitor output set to 10 bit and have tried several project settings like REC709 and a couple of the others that mention SLog3. (Never realized these existed until today).  No matter what I do I am seeing the banding, so just wondering if there is a setting somewhere that I am missing to tell MC to be 10 bit, or what I need to do differently.  I looked around before posting this, so if this has been covered before please accept my apologies.

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  • Wed, Mar 18 2020 12:19 AM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: 10 bit question

    Is your timeline set to 10 bit - green square on the lower edge of the timeline?

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  • Wed, Mar 18 2020 1:24 AM In reply to

    • mcabery
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    Re: 10 bit question

    Yes, I have tried all of the colors there and even with it green with the 10 in it I still have the banding.  Thanks though....

    Intel i9-9820X Skylake X 10-Core Asus X299 Motherboard, 32GB RAM, Quadro M2000 video card, always up to date on Avid. [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Mar 18 2020 1:52 AM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: 10 bit question

    Signal path questions.

    I see you have a Matrox Mini.  Is that still a supported IO card for Avid?  Is the driver for it still valid with the version of Avid you are running?

    You say Sony Catalyst Browse did not show the issue.  How are you viewing the output of that software?  Is it going through the same path as Avid?  What monitor is attached to the Matrox?  Is it a 10 bit panel? 

    Do you have a short clip you could share?

    Jef

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  • Wed, Mar 18 2020 9:10 AM In reply to

    Re: 10 bit question

    Take care when using SLog (or any LOG LUT) unless you expose correctly its likely you will only use a small portion of your 10bit source range and when thats stretched back by adding the SLOG LUT in MC you will drag banding back in.

    Try removing the SLOG LUT in source settings in Avid and see if the banding goes.

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  • Thu, Mar 19 2020 2:15 AM In reply to

    • mcabery
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    Re: 10 bit question

    Thanks for the input.  I did take the LUTs off just to see what would happen, and nothing seemed to change on that... But, it's probably the MXO2 box that is the problem.  It isn't approved any more, but it still works (except maybe for this!)  I was viewing Catalyst on the computer monitor, so it doesn't have the same path.  The monitor is an older JVC flat panel, and I bet it's not 10 bit either... So many things! I have the clip, but not sure how I should share that... Any thoughts on that?  I will be away from the office tomorrow, so will take a while to get back to this.

    Intel i9-9820X Skylake X 10-Core Asus X299 Motherboard, 32GB RAM, Quadro M2000 video card, always up to date on Avid. [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Mar 20 2020 4:28 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: 10 bit question

    If your monitor is not 10 bit then you might definitely see banding, regardless of the signal path - only a true 10 bit panel will show 10bit media transparently.

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  • Fri, Mar 20 2020 4:59 PM In reply to

    Re: 10 bit question

    And ultimatey however its seen by end users will be 8 bit so if the content introduces bandingin 8 bit it will be seen.

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

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  • Sat, Mar 21 2020 12:21 AM In reply to

    • mcabery
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    Re: 10 bit question

    I will keep playing around and see if it is just this file also.  As always, thanks for the help!

    Intel i9-9820X Skylake X 10-Core Asus X299 Motherboard, 32GB RAM, Quadro M2000 video card, always up to date on Avid. [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Mar 21 2020 7:46 AM In reply to

    • knejmann
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    Re: 10 bit question

    mcabery:
    it's probably the MXO2 box that is the problem

    Here's a test that might tell you something about the output hardware:

     

    • On V1 place a paint effect and make a rectangle that covers most of the screen. Mode: solid, Color HSL 255 - 0 - 52
    • Add another rectangle on top. Mode: gradient, HSL 255 - 0 - 33
    • You now have a very low contrast gradient.
    • Now on V3 add a Color Correction Effect to increase the contrast. I used a Y-curve with two points (0 -> 21) and (102 -> 255) in 8-bit values.
    • If you switch the timeline quality between "Full Quality" and "Full Quality 10-bit" you should see that the first shows a lot of banding.

     

     

     

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  • Sat, Mar 21 2020 12:05 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: 10 bit question

    Pat Horridge:

    And ultimatey however its seen by end users will be 8 bit so if the content introduces bandingin 8 bit it will be seen.

    Very good point. I see banding all over Netflix and iPlayer, even on the best of material, even on a good telly - one of the only real advantage of old analogue CRT.

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  • Sun, Mar 22 2020 6:25 AM In reply to

    • knejmann
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    Re: 10 bit question

    Mercer:
    I see banding all over Netflix and iPlayer, even on the best of material, even on a good telly

    But in my experience most of that banding is introduced by heavy compression in the distribution codecs. Material that is mixed down to XDCAMHD50 (8-bit codec) and send to playback without noticable banding can certainly display banding when broadcast or streamed in 4-8 Mbit/s.

    Mercer:
    one of the only real advantage of old analogue CRT

    ... or old analogue distribution? :-)

    Media Composer 2018.12.6 - Windows 10 - Dell 8520 - Blackmagic Decklink Studio 4K - Interplay and NEXIS storage - Avid Artist Color. [view my complete system specs]

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  • Sun, Mar 22 2020 7:25 AM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: 10 bit question

    knejmann:

    Mercer:
    I see banding all over Netflix and iPlayer, even on the best of material, even on a good telly

    But in my experience most of that banding is introduced by heavy compression in the distribution codecs. Material that is mixed down to XDCAMHD50 (8-bit codec) and send to playback without noticable banding can certainly display banding when broadcast or streamed in 4-8 Mbit/s.

    That is not the reason why. I online as well as offline and I regularly finish with such codecs. It is quite possible even mandatory not to end up with banding even from 8 bit sources. Streaming platforms have a much higher bandwidth than you are quoting, only terrestial broadcast can fall so low. The principal reason is streaming at 4:2:0 8bit for HD. Even some HDR 4K is not 10bit. Compounded with the vast majority of TV sets being 8 bit panels (again even so called HDR ones), it is almost inevitable. The vast majority of viewers never notice or care about banding. My 17" HD SDR true 10 bit grading monitor cost well over £4000 - how much do you think a true 10bit 55" HDR 4K TV set would really cost?

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  • Sun, Mar 22 2020 12:11 PM In reply to

    • knejmann
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    Re: 10 bit question

    On streaming:

    BBC states that "High-quality BBC iPlayer programmes stream at up to 5 Mbps or megabits (5000 kbps) and our standard quality version is 1.5 Mbps (1500 kbps)."

    Netflix "offers four data usage settings to choose from: [...] High - Best video quality, up to 3 GB per hour per device for HD, and 7 GB per hour per device for Ultra HD".

    3 GB pr hour equals an average of 6.6 megabits per second.

     

    That said streaming can use some tricks that are not possible with terrestial broadcast, that allows streaming to have better visual quality at the same bandwidth.

    We do agree that panels should be 10 bit for HDR. Do you know if Netflix or BBC uses 10-bit codecs for distribution of HDR content?

    Media Composer 2018.12.6 - Windows 10 - Dell 8520 - Blackmagic Decklink Studio 4K - Interplay and NEXIS storage - Avid Artist Color. [view my complete system specs]

    Kåre Nejmann

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  • Sun, Mar 22 2020 2:43 PM In reply to

    • BenoitM
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    Re: 10 bit question

    Reminds me my banding issue : https://community.avid.com/forums/p/182669/854654.aspx#854654

    Has been escalated to support, but not 'fixed' (closed now, but I'm not really convinced by the final arguments in the  response to my case :P)

    My point: the AMA plugin could be the culprit....

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