Latest post Sun, Sep 28 2008 3:39 AM by Mark Job. 8 replies.
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  • Fri, Sep 26 2008 7:19 PM

    • weekender
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    So close to deciding Workflow for HDV project! Pleeeaase help with final questions!!

     

    Okay I'm getting so close to understanding which workflow I should use for my project but have still a couple questions before diving in head first. Your help will be huuuugely appreciated!!

    I shot 70 hours in HDV 1080i  with a Sony HVR-A1u and want to create a pilot episode to pitch to an outdoor life network. From reading many posts, here's what I'm understanding would be good for a workflow and please tell me if it's right or if there's a better way:     I'm getting that it could be good to first capture downconverted DV25 into a NTSC 30i project for editting. (True?) The part that confuses me is when people say to 'offline edit.' What does this mean? Do I need to change any settings to offline edit or do I just go ahead and edit my material after it is captured? Also someone posted it is good to capture in downconverted 'squeezed' as opposed to 'letterbox,' is that true? Apparantly it's best for adding titles during editting? Then is it true that after I have a final sequence with titles and effects, I duplicate my sequence, decompose it and then batch capture (with a changed project of 1080i/59.94)? This is my first time doing all this, so I hope this all works. So all I needed to do was make sure my timecode was enabled in my capture tool and that I had my tape names organized and Avid will just ask me to insert certain tapes when batch capturing? Will I then end up with the exact sequence in HD or do I need to do something to relink all the new HD clips to make it the same sequence that I was happy with in SD?  Will all the titles and effects that I editted in SD still be  there is HD?

     

    Just to make sure, as far as the settings of my camera goes before capturing to downconverted DV25, do I want to have:   'VCR HDV/DV' set to 'DV' and not 'HDV'? and the 'i.Link Conv' set to 'on HDV->DV' and not 'off'? and then what I asked before which was the 'Down Convert' set to 'Sqeeze' and not 'Letterbox' or 'Edge Crop'? Then when I batch capture later, will I change those settings on my camera to capture in HD?

    Thanks looooaaads!! I'm very excited to get onto this project!

     

    Windows 7 Avid Media Composer 5 Quicktime 7 Intel core i7 2600k quad core cpu 3.4GHz 8 GB Ram NVIDIA GTX 560 Ti Hawk 1GB video card Hitachi Deskstar... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Sep 26 2008 9:37 PM In reply to

    • Mark Job
    • Top 75 Contributor
    • Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2007
    • Port McNeill, B.C., Canada
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    Re: So close to deciding Workflow for HDV project! Pleeeaase help with final questions!!

    weekender:
    I'm getting that it could be good to first capture downconverted DV25 into a NTSC 30i project for editting. (True?)
     

    ....False ! Back in the good old days of the introduction of HD (Only 3 years back actually), there were no HD editng systems to speak of (Except Avid Nitris DS - The Best ! Stick out tongue ) and Quantel (I think ?). What editors used to do was off line the edit in SD. You would capture your HDV or HD CAM with your Mojo, or in our case, via analogue component input to our old SD DPS Perception RT, from an HD VTR with a copy of the timecode from the HD master tapes burned in and fed to the VITC via our RS-422 input over the video. Next we would edit the whole thing normally either in elongated squishtavision, or letterboxed inside a regular SD 4:3 aspect ratio frame. What I would do is generate an EDL CMX 3600 file on a 31/4 inch floppy and hand that in with a VHS dub from my time line as a reference. Either I, or the TV network would simply perform an online edit with the original HD tapes in an HD suite based on the CMX 3600 EDL (Edit Decision List) I made in my off line edit.

    weekender:
    Also someone posted it is good to capture in downconverted 'squeezed' as opposed to 'letterbox,' is that true?

    ....Flase ! May I suggest you simply forget you ever heard anything about off line, or online edits for now. Please capture via firewire from your Sony HVR-A1u HDV camera into an Avid 1080i 59.94 HDV project, and perform your picture, sound and graphics edit as normal in the full HDV HD Mode. If you can, please get access to either a standard or an SDI MOJO box and deliver your project proposal to the network in one of the following formats......................

    1. Transcode your completed HDV Sequence to DNxHD (Probably DnxHD 145 8 Bit), then output using DVDonestep and produce a simple insert and play SD DVD to pitch your pilot. (You need to have the Avid Studio Toolkit to use this feature). If you do not have the ASTK, then................

    2. Beg, borrow, rent an Avid MOJO and make a secondary video track above the first one and drop a Reformat filter from the Reformat Effects in your Effects Pallette overtop of your now squished SD sequence to make it 16X9 which unsqueezes it back out again. Switch your finished HDV Project in the Project Tab to NTSC 30i and output to VHS, table top DVD recorder, or BetaCam SP to produce a master tape for them to watch at the station. If you can't get your hands on a MOJO, then.......................

    3. Output via firewire from your HDV timeline to camcorder making a master HDV tape. If this isn't your cup of tea, then.................

    4. Export a Quicktime video file using the 1:1x project resolution and ftp it over to the station via the Internet, or burn it to a double layer DVD or BlueRay DVD, or.....................

    5. Export to Sorensen Squeeze and make a high data rate MPEG 2 file (Which many stations now broadcast straight to air via a special server) and give that a 15 Mbit encoding rate using double pass VBR encoding.

    weekender:

    Just to make sure, as far as the settings of my camera goes before capturing to downconverted DV25, do I want to have:   'VCR HDV/DV' set to 'DV' and not 'HDV'? and the 'i.Link Conv' set to 'on HDV->DV' and not 'off'? and then what I asked before which was the 'Down Convert' set to 'Sqeeze' and not 'Letterbox' or 'Edge Crop'? Then when I batch capture later, will I change those settings on my camera to capture in HD?

    ....No ! Capture and edit in native HDV HD 1080i 59.94 !

     

     

    Now Newer Avid Certified MacBook Pro version 8.3 early 2011 with Core i7 (2720 QM) Quad 2.2 GHz CPU with a 6 MB Shared L3 Cache , 4 GB of DDR 3 - 1333... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Sat, Sep 27 2008 4:51 PM In reply to

    • sasha1
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    Re: So close to deciding Workflow for HDV project! Pleeeaase help with final questions!!

    I suggest that before you begin editing a huge project you make a test with a few minutes of your video. run the whole process through to output so you know it will work.

    with my system HDV does not always play smoothly so for a current multicam edit I brought it in as SD 30i (yes set sony camera to downconvert HDV-DV). after editing I duplicate the sequence, delete the audio tracks and then batch capture after having changed the project format to HDV (then add the audio back - no need to batch capure audio). this works for me.

    if you don't have a problem editing in HDV then just do it from the start.

    if the poster above has not confused you with all the possibilites just pick one which works. think backwards from your final delivery. if you want to deliver in some HD format than figure out how to achieve that. if you want to deliver a DVD then what I do is finish the edit in HDV and print to tape as HDV, then put that in an HDV deck or camcorder and downconvert via firewire right into a DVD recorder. this will make a very good-looking standard 4:3 letterboxed video, and is a lot faster than transcoding the whole thing in sorenson.

             - sasha

     

     

    Avid 1: HP Z420. Quadro 4000, Motu, MC 7.02. Avid 2: Dell T3400 - Core 2 Quad 2.83 - 8GB RAM - Quadro K2000 - Matrox Mini - MC 7.02 [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Sep 27 2008 4:56 PM In reply to

    Re: So close to deciding Workflow for HDV project! Pleeeaase help with final questions!!

    weekender:
    The part that confuses me is when people say to 'offline edit.' What does this mean?

    Are you asking what an "offline" edit is?  Or asking how it pertains to HD/HDV in particular? 

     

    MacPro dual 2.66GHz 6GB RAM nVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT Storage: 2TB G-Speed eS with controller card 3x1TB Hitachi SATA-II internals, various external FW/USB... [view my complete system specs]

    Kenton VanNatten | Avid Editor (for hire)

    "I am not obsessed... I'm detail-oriented"

  • Sat, Sep 27 2008 5:12 PM In reply to

    • Mark Job
    • Top 75 Contributor
    • Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2007
    • Port McNeill, B.C., Canada
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    Re: So close to deciding Workflow for HDV project! Pleeeaase help with final questions!!

    sasha1:
    if the poster above has not confused you with all the possibilites just pick one which works.
     

    ....Uhh, that's why I gave him several posssibilities, because one may be less practical than another. I don't think it's fair to characterize my post as confusing.

    Now Newer Avid Certified MacBook Pro version 8.3 early 2011 with Core i7 (2720 QM) Quad 2.2 GHz CPU with a 6 MB Shared L3 Cache , 4 GB of DDR 3 - 1333... [view my complete system specs]

    The thing is don't peak too early in life. 

  • Sat, Sep 27 2008 7:06 PM In reply to

    • weekender
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    • Joined on Thu, Jan 4 2007
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    Re: So close to deciding Workflow for HDV project! Pleeeaase help with final questions!!

    Hey you guys thanks so much for your input!!

    Laptopeditor, you were saying it's best to capture and edit in HDV 1080i/59.94, which is what I'd LOVE to do for simplicity, but it's been true what some people are saying about it being very chunky and not fluid as I sift through the video in my clips since it has large GOP (groups of pictures.) It's quite frustrating editing like that, but I'm assuming there's no way to make it more fluid unless I had a supersystem? If I want to edit with smoother, and more responsive material, would I then be stuck with having to capture it in something like DV25 and then batch capture in HDV and relink after my final edit? But then would all my transitions, effects titles and music still be fine and in tact in the sequence after it's batch captured?

    Thanks

     

     

    Windows 7 Avid Media Composer 5 Quicktime 7 Intel core i7 2600k quad core cpu 3.4GHz 8 GB Ram NVIDIA GTX 560 Ti Hawk 1GB video card Hitachi Deskstar... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Sep 27 2008 8:29 PM In reply to

    • weekender
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Thu, Jan 4 2007
    • Vancouver, Canada
    • Posts 56
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    Re: So close to deciding Workflow for HDV project! Pleeeaase help with final questions!!

    Oops, I meant to also reply to you other fellas about the tips you gave me!

    Sasha1, you said you like to capture in SD 30i, downconverted HDV-DV. In my sony camera then, should I have it set to 'DOWNCONVERTED SQUEEZE or LETTERBOX'? One post said to set it to Squeeze since  but isn't Letterbox proper 16:9? And then when  you finish your edit, you duplicate the sequence, delete the audio tracks before batch capturing. Do you meant completely delete the audio tracks from the HardDrive? And why is that needed to be done?

    And Kenton.VanNatten, when I was asking what an 'offline' edit is, you asked if it was in regards to HD/HDV in particular. I just want to know what it means when some posts say that " it's good to capture the HDV material in downconverted DV25 in a 30i project and do an offline edit." Do I actually need to change somethine to make if "offline" while editing the DV25 material or is editing with this workflow just called "offline?" Sorry if I sound ignorant ... but I really am at this time but doing the best I can to understand all this so I can sink my head into this project.

    Thank you guys soooo much for your help!!

    Windows 7 Avid Media Composer 5 Quicktime 7 Intel core i7 2600k quad core cpu 3.4GHz 8 GB Ram NVIDIA GTX 560 Ti Hawk 1GB video card Hitachi Deskstar... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Sep 27 2008 10:01 PM In reply to

    Re: So close to deciding Workflow for HDV project! Pleeeaase help with final questions!!

     an "offline" edit is editing using a lower resolution than what your final output will be.  In your case DV25 would be the "offline" res because the high res, ("Online") is HD. 

    It was common to do offline edits when drives only held 9GB and cost $4000 each, you digitize all material in at an "offline" resolution (ie, low quality) then you up-res during the "online" and only the material in your sequence goes out at full quality.

    The practice sort of went away for a bit before everyone started cutting HD, but now it's the same principle.  HD uses alot of drive space and CPU power, SD doesn't.  Edit Offline in SD and Online in HD. 

    search wikipedia for Offline Editing (and Online editing)

     

    MacPro dual 2.66GHz 6GB RAM nVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT Storage: 2TB G-Speed eS with controller card 3x1TB Hitachi SATA-II internals, various external FW/USB... [view my complete system specs]

    Kenton VanNatten | Avid Editor (for hire)

    "I am not obsessed... I'm detail-oriented"

  • Sun, Sep 28 2008 3:39 AM In reply to

    • Mark Job
    • Top 75 Contributor
    • Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2007
    • Port McNeill, B.C., Canada
    • Posts 1,580
    • Points 19,995

    Re: So close to deciding Workflow for HDV project! Pleeeaase help with final questions!!

    weekender:
    Laptopeditor, you were saying it's best to capture and edit in HDV 1080i/59.94, which is what I'd LOVE to do for simplicity, but it's been true what some people are saying about it being very chunky and not fluid as I sift through the video in my clips since it has large GOP (groups of pictures.) It's quite frustrating editing like that, but I'm assuming there's no way to make it more fluid unless I had a supersystem?
     

    ....No, that's incorrect. Here's what you do. If the clips are already in your system, then create another bin called transcoded clips and drag either your sequence or all of the clips you want to edit into it. Once you have transcoded those clips to DNxHD, then everything will play smoothly on your system. Personally, if I get a studdery HDV clip, sequence or whole project, then I don't care much, since I know I will cut it and then transcode it over to DNxHD to output to SD DVD or web encode for Internet distribution. If I have to output to tape, then it's DNxHD all the way.

     

    Now Newer Avid Certified MacBook Pro version 8.3 early 2011 with Core i7 (2720 QM) Quad 2.2 GHz CPU with a 6 MB Shared L3 Cache , 4 GB of DDR 3 - 1333... [view my complete system specs]

    The thing is don't peak too early in life. 

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