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  • Wed, Apr 8 2009 4:49 PM

    Firewire Capture NEEDS to be Improved

    Firewire capture is an adventure w/ MC and it was w/ AXP. My drives are fast enough, they have enough space, I'm using a recommended Texas Instruments Firewire card (installed on PCI Slot 5, PCI bus 2, device 4, function 0).

    But timecode breaks that only Avid sees are killing me during capture. I also have Sony Vegas and often times have to use that for capture. But this should not be necessary.

    I can only imagine how many customers Avid has lost due to crazy error messages received during capture. How many 14-day trial users just throw up their hands and say "___ this, I don't care how great MC cuts, if I can't even capture my footage w/o an adventure, then it's not worth the hassle!"?

    While I'm typing, Vegas is happily capturing away in the b/g. It's recording timecode, all audio and video, doing scene detection w/o complaint. Oh and this is just normal SD DV video, not some exotic form of HD.

    I realize that solid state is the future, but Avid NEEDS to improve capture. Can it really be that difficult to write a non-buggy capture program?

    And this problem is not unique to me. A forum search will bring up pages upon pages upon pages of capture related problems.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Wed, Apr 8 2009 5:15 PM In reply to

    Re: Firewire Capture NEEDS to be Improved

    BobbyMurcerFan:
    But timecode breaks that only Avid sees are killing me during capture

    The bigger question I would ask is why do you have so many TC breaks?

    and are you satified with the fact that Vegas just happily ignores these whereas MC is telling you that it is a problem?  TC breaks can cause problems down the line and so MC attempts to circumvent those problems and flag these as such before you have to re-capture for Online. 

    But, moral of the story is If tapes are shot correctly, they should not contain TC breaks.

     

    MacPro dual 2.66GHz 6GB RAM nVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT Storage: 2TB G-Speed eS with controller card 3x1TB Hitachi SATA-II internals, various external FW/USB... [view my complete system specs]

    Kenton VanNatten | Avid Editor (for hire)

    "I am not obsessed... I'm detail-oriented"

  • Wed, Apr 8 2009 5:45 PM In reply to

    Re: Firewire Capture NEEDS to be Improved

    I did not shoot these tapes. They were shot years ago and just recently given to me to look at to see if they can be edited into something worthwhile.

    My belief is that what Avid is calling a TC break is often times bugginess with Avid's capture tool. FWIU, TC breaks are mostly caused by the camera being turned off and then restarted w/o rewinding a little bit to be sure no blank timecode is present. These TC breaks seem to happen a few seconds into a scene.

    I'm looking at Vegas, the tape has been fully captured, no dropped frames and the DV scene detection worked w/o a hitch.

    Of course I like MC more, but there are some real nice features in Vegas: excellent audio (sample rate editing, stackable effects, unlimited tracks, spectrum analyzer pulgin), realtime scopes, dockable windows, scrolling audio waveforms, play not stopping when a key is pressed, ability to turn on/off individual effects. Cutting is too mouse oriented for my liking and I don't like some aspects of its CC, but it does have secondary vector based CC... NOTHING like Symphony mind you. But it has a solid feel and does some things very well.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Wed, Apr 8 2009 5:48 PM In reply to

    • Solopost
    • Top 75 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • California
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    Re: Firewire Capture NEEDS to be Improved

    I have a mass number of SD tapes with clean timecode from beginning to end. Never had MC (or AXP) stammer and stall on timecode breaks.

    I guess the better question is, do your tapes have TC breaks? If it's that big of a problem - discover why your tapes have TC breaks.. and the answer won't be 'because Avid is terrible at capture'.

    Never mind the above - I was typing this as you were typing your other response.

    So the answer was found.... the issue is not Avid, but the tapes actually have TC breaks... now, if there was a way for Avid to not recognise TC breaks.....

    SYS# 1- MC6.5 Mac Pro 2xQuad-Core Intel 3.2Ghz 18Gb Ram OS 10.7.5 2Tb storage (mixed SATA/1394/1394b) SYS# 2- MC6.5 Macbook Pro 2.8Ghz (mid-2009) 4Gb... [view my complete system specs]

    My Two Cents .02
    Kent Brockman

  • Wed, Apr 8 2009 6:03 PM In reply to

    Re: Firewire Capture NEEDS to be Improved

    Solopost, the answer hasn't been found. I'm able to capture the tapes in Vegas w/o problem but not in MC. I just completed another capture in to out w/o complication in Vegas. Ths is a tape that would not capture in MC. I don't think there are timecode breaks. Something else is going on, IMHO.

    P.S. And of course I have Capture across timecode breaks selected; Stop capture if a bad frame is detected deselected. I've tried turing on/off Enable detection of small timecode breaks.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Wed, Apr 8 2009 7:34 PM In reply to

    Re: Firewire Capture NEEDS to be Improved

    So, the real issue is that you're dissatisfied with Avid's approach to the TC breaks.

    Vegas may be more forgiving with stuff like TC breaks during capture because it's intended market may not even understand what TC is and why it break in the first place. 

    Why do the guys on Pit Road have to push the race car to get it onto the track?  It's a high performance machine, surely it can handle being able to pull off from a dead stop without people pushing it.

    MacPro dual 2.66GHz 6GB RAM nVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT Storage: 2TB G-Speed eS with controller card 3x1TB Hitachi SATA-II internals, various external FW/USB... [view my complete system specs]

    Kenton VanNatten | Avid Editor (for hire)

    "I am not obsessed... I'm detail-oriented"

  • Wed, Apr 8 2009 8:37 PM In reply to

    Re: Firewire Capture NEEDS to be Improved

    Kenton, I don't want to have spend my morning and half my afternoon trying to capture three mini dv tapes. I am not even convinced that there are timecode breaks, esp after searching the forums and finding so many capture problems that people have.

    But even if there are TC breaks, I selected to capture across timecode breaks, so no, I'm not happy that Avid is crapping out when it hits a TC break.

    Let me ask you, what IS so great about Avid throwing an exception during capture when it hits a small timecode break (esp. when I told the app to ignore TC breaks)? I still need to capture the tape. So now I have to go back, try a few more times, see if I can keep what was captured. And most likely I'll just go back to the beginning of the tape, deselect TC and recapture. So now after spending a lot of time, I still windup with footage that has no useful timecode relationship to the source.

    What I would like Avid to do is to continue capturing across timecode breaks, like I asked it to, and put locators where it found errors in TC. That would work for me.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Wed, Apr 8 2009 8:52 PM In reply to

    Re: Firewire Capture NEEDS to be Improved

    Avid has a long history of an offline/online editing process.  This means the tapes will be ingested at least twice, maybe more.  If they can't be ingested succesfully during the offline cut, there's no guarantee that they can be ingested accurately for the online, which will be in a much more expensive room.  For my personal system, I use Serial Deck Control.

    As for ignoring the "Capture Across TC Breaks" option ... dunno ...

    Symphony 8.8.x w/Avid Nitris DX, HP z420, Windows 10, QT v7.7.x, Hexa Core 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM, nVidia Quadro Series 2000 w/353.82. 2TB Boot, 2 x 3TB internal... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Wed, Apr 8 2009 9:02 PM In reply to

    Re: Firewire Capture NEEDS to be Improved

    Hi,

    BobbyMurcerFan:
    I selected to capture across timecode breaks, so no, I'm not happy that Avid is crapping out when it hits a TC break.

    Try marking an out point at the end of the tape before you start capturing.  That sometimes helps the machine realize that even though it has hit a TC break, there remains more footage to capture.

    BobbyMurcerFan:
    Let me ask you, what IS so great about Avid throwing an exception during capture when it hits a small timecode break (esp. when I told the app to ignore TC breaks)?

    If there really was a TC problem and Avid ignored it and just threw down whatever TC would work to make the capture continue, you'd be totally screwed if you needed to a) move to an online suite or b) move to another system and the TC in the master clips didn't match the TC on the tapes.

    BobbyMurcerFan:
    What I would like Avid to do is to continue capturing across timecode breaks, like I asked it to, and put locators where it found errors in TC. That would work for me.

    How would that feature work?  If there's a TC error, how does the machine know when the TC is correct?  How would you program that?  

    What you're looking for is called an "assistant".

    good luck,
    Carl

    Media Composer 2018.12.5 w/Symphony/SS/PF options, HP Envy 17t-j100 Quad Edition laptop, Windows 10 Pro, Intel Core i7 2.4GHz, 16 GB RAM, nVidia GeForce... [view my complete system specs]

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who only consider the price are this man's lawful prey."  - John Ruskin (1819-1900)

     

    Carl Amoscato | Freelance Film & Video Editor | London, UK

  • Wed, Apr 8 2009 9:52 PM In reply to

    Re: Firewire Capture NEEDS to be Improved

    camoscato:
    If there really was a TC problem and Avid ignored it and just threw down whatever TC would work to make the capture continue, you'd be totally screwed if you needed to a) move to an online suite or b) move to another system and the TC in the master clips didn't match the TC on the tapes.
    I have suggested many times over the years that Avid record and embed the off tape timecode into the captured master clip rather than capturing the start TC number and inventing its own continuous code from there.

    For obvious editing reasons the master clips timecode must be continuous.  I do not see it as a VERY difficult task for Avid to breakup a captured Master clip into sub master clips at all timecode breakpoints, if there are any, using code similar to that used in the existing DV scene extraction process.

    For those not needing an accurate TC recapture ability just turn off TC at capture time. If using this option then have Avid ignore any reference to TC or deck polling during the capture.  That should allow Avid to capture almost any poorly recorded tape similarly to other existing NLE's

     

  • Wed, Apr 8 2009 10:07 PM In reply to

    Re: Firewire Capture NEEDS to be Improved

    Whenever I encounter a tape that Avid seems to balk at, I dub it to another tape and then capture the new tape and toss the original in my scratch tape box.  Sure it takes extra time to dub it, but you can account for the fact that you know it's going to take you an extra hour per tape vs unknown amount of time trying to make it work.

    MacPro dual 2.66GHz 6GB RAM nVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT Storage: 2TB G-Speed eS with controller card 3x1TB Hitachi SATA-II internals, various external FW/USB... [view my complete system specs]

    Kenton VanNatten | Avid Editor (for hire)

    "I am not obsessed... I'm detail-oriented"

  • Mon, Apr 13 2009 1:34 PM In reply to

    Re: Firewire Capture NEEDS to be Improved

    I vote for this strongly.

    But I am unsure this has to do with the firewire capture only.

    It is that MC is very strict to tape errors.

    Maybe this is due to the fact that till today MC was closer to broadcast or film and not to newer prosumer

    cameras and decks. I hope and I am sure that this will change in the future.

    It's the only way for Avid to go on.

    Desktop PC

     

    Corsair RM750X|Asus P8Z68 Deluxe(Gen3)|i7 2600K@4.4|Corsair 32G DDR3|PNY Quadro P2000(390.77)|Samsung 850 Pro SSD(OS) 256 GB|2x2TB WD RE4@RAID 0|2x500GB Mushkin SSD@RAID 0|LG BH16NS40|W10 Pro 64bit|Media Composer Software 2018.12 with Symphony Option on Dongle|2xHP 22'' Monitors|M-Audio AV30 Speakers.

     

    Larry as long as I live I will remember you.

     

    3 Heads Digital Films

  • Mon, Apr 13 2009 4:35 PM In reply to

    Re: Firewire Capture NEEDS to be Improved

    sverkalo:

    Maybe this is due to the fact that till today MC was closer to broadcast or film and not to newer prosumer

    cameras and decks. I hope and I am sure that this will change in the future.

    It's the only way for Avid to go on.

    Ack!  I truly hope that Avid will go on, but I certainly hope that it's not at the expense of their professional level reputation.  The more that Avid Media Composer is aligned with prosumer level equipment/mentality will certainly hurt it's place in that market. 

    I fear that it would eventually be considered a "wedding/event video editors tool" and it would lose all credibility that it has built over the last 20 yrs.

     

    MacPro dual 2.66GHz 6GB RAM nVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT Storage: 2TB G-Speed eS with controller card 3x1TB Hitachi SATA-II internals, various external FW/USB... [view my complete system specs]

    Kenton VanNatten | Avid Editor (for hire)

    "I am not obsessed... I'm detail-oriented"

  • Mon, Apr 13 2009 4:56 PM In reply to

    Re: Firewire Capture NEEDS to be Improved

    Hi,

    sverkalo:
    Maybe this is due to the fact that till today MC was closer to broadcast or film and not to newer prosumer cameras and decks. I hope and I am sure that this will change in the future.  It's the only way for Avid to go on.

    Like Kenton, I'm ok with Media Composer becoming more accomodating of a greater number of consumber cameras and decks as long as it is not at the expense of accuracy/functionality with broadcast cameras and decks.

    good luck,
    Carl

    Media Composer 2018.12.5 w/Symphony/SS/PF options, HP Envy 17t-j100 Quad Edition laptop, Windows 10 Pro, Intel Core i7 2.4GHz, 16 GB RAM, nVidia GeForce... [view my complete system specs]

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who only consider the price are this man's lawful prey."  - John Ruskin (1819-1900)

     

    Carl Amoscato | Freelance Film & Video Editor | London, UK

  • Mon, Apr 13 2009 7:20 PM In reply to

    Re: Firewire Capture NEEDS to be Improved

    I am with you. This is one of the reasons I switched from Liquid to Avid and not to Premiere or any other NLE.

    But I believe that Avid must open up a little bit something which is doing anyway.

    I mean editing an off line film on a laptop isn't harder from a TV show.

    Desktop PC

     

    Corsair RM750X|Asus P8Z68 Deluxe(Gen3)|i7 2600K@4.4|Corsair 32G DDR3|PNY Quadro P2000(390.77)|Samsung 850 Pro SSD(OS) 256 GB|2x2TB WD RE4@RAID 0|2x500GB Mushkin SSD@RAID 0|LG BH16NS40|W10 Pro 64bit|Media Composer Software 2018.12 with Symphony Option on Dongle|2xHP 22'' Monitors|M-Audio AV30 Speakers.

     

    Larry as long as I live I will remember you.

     

    3 Heads Digital Films

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