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  • Fri, Feb 18 2011 10:39 PM In reply to

    • Mike Shaw
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    Re: NextGen has arrived!

    Hmm.  It isn't speculation.  It isn't a wish.  It is a statement of fact.  And I'm not going to tell you how I know.  Work it out.

    Unlike Pinnacle Studio, which has gone about as far as it can 'power wise', even with the Liquid engine now under its bonnet,  Avid Studio is new all round and has a lot of potential for growing and expanding into a more advanced version.  I'm not saying it will be a replacement for Liquid - I'm saying it could become as capable (or more so).  Whether or not it will - that is speculation.  But could it?  Yes.

    I know PS.  I know AS.  I shall stick with MC.  That's much more capable than anything else I've seen. It's just harder to get to grips with, that's all...   

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  • Fri, Feb 18 2011 11:24 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: NextGen has arrived!

    Mike Shaw:
    I'm not saying it will be a replacement for Liquid - I'm saying it could become as capable (or more so)

    Just to remind George that this is the NextGen that he has written passionately about....... hoping that it would arrive before he did eventually make his move to MC.
    I am not speculating about that.
    I am reading the words of a moderator over on the Pinnacle Liquid Forum.

    Regards,
    Douglas

     

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  • Sat, Feb 19 2011 12:16 AM In reply to

    Re: NextGen has arrived!

    That was a long time before MC.

    But as it LOOKS now it's a slight dissapointment.

    It doesn't LOOK even close to Liquid.

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  • Sat, Feb 19 2011 12:51 AM In reply to

    • Ric
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    Re: NextGen has arrived!

    It looks like magix pro x2. Which by the way is ok.  I guess that the look is a German thing.

     

    Ric

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  • Sat, Feb 19 2011 1:31 AM In reply to

    • jiggyjay
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    Re: NextGen has arrived!

    I'm with others who say this is not the next version of Liquid or "next gen" it does look like the Avid version of Studio.. However there is potential on future releases for it to transform to the next version of liquid but as of right now its not... But we'll see how it is later version.. 

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  • Sat, Feb 19 2011 2:17 AM In reply to

    • stwb
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    Re: NextGen has arrived!

    sverkalo:
    Mike wishes that Avid Studio can become as good as possible. That's what I understand.

     

    Mike Shaw: "It has the potential to become as capable as Liquid."

     

    Sorry George, but I disagree. That sounds more like a statement than a wish to me.

    Wish example: "I hope that some day AS will be as capable as Liquid was."

    -Steve

  • Sat, Feb 19 2011 2:43 AM In reply to

    • stwb
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    Re: NextGen has arrived!

    And, Mike, I will tell you how I know that is extremely unlikely to happen and I won't even make you work it out. I'll provide you with what I see as being a very important fact in this discussion: $170.

    Mike Shaw:
    Avid Studio is new all round and has a lot of potential for growing and expanding into a more advanced version.

     

    Then why didn't they simply keep Liquid 7 and develop it further/update it for full HD if their intention is to have a more advanced version? They already had a very good starting point in a very capable NLE with a number of features that were more advanced than many other NLE's at the time, especially at that price point, and they chose to throw it away. That's why I doubt what you're saying will happen. It just doesn't sound plausible to me.

    -Steve

  • Sat, Feb 19 2011 10:03 AM In reply to

    • Mike Shaw
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    Re: NextGen has arrived!

    Think on, my friend.  $170 is for the first ... 'starter' .... version.  P Studio has three price levels.  The more you pay, the more you get.  I say that A Studio definitely has the basis and potential to expand further.

    Why not simply keep Liquid?  I am restating here what was said when it was declared that a new program ('newgen') would have to be developed.  Liquid had reached the limit of its development.  No more could be crammed in without upsetting what was already there - and to make it work under the new developing OS, and 64 bit etc etc etc would have made it worse.  Sometimes its better to look at what one has, look at what is needed - and start again from scratch rather than try to modify, adapt and squeeze more in. You need to start again from scratch knowing what is in the pipeline and embracing it from the outset.  If you know the history of P Studio, you'll know pretty much the same happened with that - except in that case, they kept the UI much the same as before.  But under the bonnet, the current Studio is nothing like the original versions - which were falling over themselves as each new feature was added.  At Version 10, it lost is 'Studio' engine, and gained the 'Liquid' engine, along with some very basic 'behind-the-scene' features of Liquid.  (S10 when launched was a travesty btw - one of the buggiest programs ever to be released. IMO.  It did get sorted, and now, P Studio is a very stable and very capable 'starter' program for home editors).

    Avid Studio doesn't look anything like Liquid.  It doesn't have all the same capabilities that Liquid had - at the moment. But as I keep repeating, the potential is there.  Some of its features are 'smoother' than in Liquid.  However, for me it 'feels like a hobbyist' program, whereas Liquid 'felt like a prosumer) program'.  Is it 'newgen'?  Maybe. Maybe not.  In my book, not.  Yet.

    It can however integrate with SmartSound on the timeline (as can the new Studio, again).  As we have SonicFire Pro with MC - ummm, how do I say this without wishing or speculating - ummm ...      ,,,, SonicFire in MC?

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  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 1:32 AM In reply to

    • stwb
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    Re: NextGen has arrived!

     Sorry, still not buying that theory. I think if a company like Avid wants to make a Porsche they are not going to first build a Volkswagon Beetle and then try to turn it into a Porsche. To me that's basically what you're pitching to us. And starting with a $170 program that is only a little better than Pinnacle Studio 15 Ultimate does not make me think that Avid Studio is meant to some day compete with and perhaps surpass NLE's like Vegas Pro and Edius, for example (in other words, what the further development of Liquid could have accomplished).

    Mike Shaw:
    Liquid had reached the limit of its development.

     

     And how do you know that? Are you one of their programmers? Were you part of the development team? Is there actually any statement from the Avid or Pinnacle team where they said Liquid had "reached the limit of its development" and therefore would have to be abandoned? You mean to tell us the programmers in effect said Gee everybody, I just don't see how we can develop this thing any further...Let's just give up and chuck it in the trash!  Seems to me that when a company wants to rewrite an NLE (or most any software) they tend to keep the product name alive along with nearly all of its features and then the new version builds on the old one so they can retain a loyal customer base and keep them happy (or try to anyway).

    -Steve

  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 1:52 AM In reply to

    Re: NextGen has arrived!

    stwb:
    Is there actually any statement from the Avid or Pinnacle team where they said Liquid had "reached the limit of its development" and therefore would have to be abandoned? You mean to tell us the programmers in effect said Gee everybody, I just don't see how we can develop this thing any further...Let's just give up and chuck it in the trash!

    Actually, that may very well have happened.  The Media Composer code for example has remnants in it dating back to 1989 or possibly prior.  As new things get added, the software engineers have to be careful not to accidentally comment out a seemingly innocuous line of old code as it may be tied to some other function.  Starting from scratch might be the best bet when developing something "new"

    stwb:
    Seems to me that when a company wants to rewrite an NLE (or most any software) they tend to keep the product name alive along with nearly all of its features and then the new version builds on the old one so they can retain a loyal customer base

    I also want to remind you all that Avid decided to EOL Liquid, for whatever reasons - they did.  The fact is, Liquid is no more.  Therefore, if after that point Avid development decided to expand on the benefits and offerings that may have once been in Liquid into a new product aimed at a similar market, they certainly couldn't call it Liquid.  

    Oh and VW owns Porsche, so they very well could decide to take a Jetta (which is what the Beetle is built on) and try to mangle it into a low end branded "Porsche"

     

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  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 4:40 AM In reply to

    • TVJohn
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    Re: NextGen has arrived!

    With little more than a screenshot or two, its hard to judge what we have...certainly, the images we see appear to resemble Studio rather than a more advanced editing vehicle.

    We will have to wait until more is revealed.

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  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 4:53 AM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: NextGen has arrived!

    Just under a year ago things were sounding like this!

    Regards,
    Douglas

    Director of Online Communities and Forums/Customer Advocate [view my complete system specs]

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  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 7:51 AM In reply to

    • stwb
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    Re: NextGen has arrived!

    Kenton.VanNatten:
    remind you all that Avid decided to EOL Liquid, for whatever reasons

     

    From what I remember Liquid users posting a long time ago about this was they suspected that Avid felt Liquid was a little too much like Media Composer in some ways and so they decided to not continue developing a product that might steal some sales from its own flagship NLE. Whether that was true about why Avid killed it, I don't know. But that was how some thought it went down.

    Kenton.VanNatten:
    a new product aimed at a similar market, they certainly couldn't call it Liquid.

     

    Umm...yeah...I'm not seeing why it would have been impossible to keep the product's name. Just because you say so, I guess?

    Kenton.VanNatten:
    Oh and VW owns Porsche, so they very well could decide to take a Jetta (which is what the Beetle is built on) and try to mangle it into a low end branded "Porsche"

    Well....as a matter of fact they already tried to mangle a VW into a low-end branded Porsche a while back. Didn't last long in actual production, although there are still some enthusiasts for "the poor man's Porsche":

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_914

    Anyway, thanks for helping to make my point. My point being that with their resources and know-how Avid doesn't need to build a Volkswagon Beetle and then try to turn it into a Porsche. And I don't believe that is what's going to happen with Avid Studio.

    -Steve

  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 8:03 AM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: NextGen has arrived!

    stwb:
    From what I remember Liquid users posting a long time ago about this was they suspected that Avid felt Liquid was a little too much like Media Composer in some ways and so they decided to not continue developing a product that might steal some sales from its own flagship NLE.

    There is a video from the last "Liquid Immersion" held in 2007, where a Mr. J. Piros, explained to the attendees the reasons for EOL-ing Liquid.
    I do not have a copy of that speech.
    The site that hosted it is no longer online.

    But, if any Liquid enthusiast, who has a copy of it, would care to listen to it again -  they can put an end to the speculation (?).
    My own vague recollection was something about a complete new code base being needed to catch up/ keep up with the developments in the digital world.

    Can anyone take a moment and check out that video?
    The facts are there - coming straight from the horses mouth.

    Regards,
    Douglas

     

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  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 10:26 AM In reply to

    • Mike Shaw
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    Re: NextGen has arrived!

    I do have it.  It is quite long (and in 'two parts) - over an hour I believe -  otherwise I'd post it up somewhere  for the naysayer to listen to as well - and distort to support his argument.

    Yes Douglas.  It explains in detail and at length the reasons for the demise of Liquid. What I know is based partly on that.  The discussions at the time were not about Liquid's (sad) demise, they were about 'what's next?' , 'what is this new generation editor going to look like'. And the name 'newgen' was born. The surprise is that development apparently 'stopped after a year or two, Jan Piros left, and Avid invited us to join up with MC. The 'newgen' was obviously not going to appear all that soon (if at all), and after three years, a huge customer base was about to shift its loyalties.

    But my comments are also based on the fact that, yes, I was involved - albeit in a small way - in the development process

    Instead of ranting and raving over a product that has been declared dead for the reasons explained in that long speech, and that most people who know about software development fully understand (and again briefly explained in this thread by Kenton), consider the possibility that while a new breed of mid range product is being developed, it is necessary to achieve some sort of return on the effort, and so a 'preliminary and pruned version' is released, before all the intended features are incorporated and perhaps to test the waters.

    For your further information, there were one or two features in Liquid which were undocumented and unlisted, because they didn't always work as desired or expected.  I think it probably true to say virtually every program ever written has such 'undocumented' features,because they can't be guaranteed to work on all systems or with all graphics cards - even those specified.   Special or unusual key combinations can produce these 'Easter Eggs' of functionality.

    stwb, you don't have to believe the facts.  That's your prerogative.  But think of this as well:  under the Avid umbrella, they already have a 'starter' program in Pinnacle Studio.  So - why produce a competitor for that, if it can't grow into something bigger and become a midway (or third-way at  least) step towards MC? (which PS cannot really do). Yes, companies do bring out competing brands (especially soap companies) so that they don't care which grabs the lion's share, as long as both together take the bulk of the market.  But if you think that is what Avid is doing with Avid Studio and Pinnacle Studio - well, that is up to you.

    It seems to be one of those cases of "Don't confuse me with the facts.  My mind is made up".

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