Latest post Tue, Jan 16 2018 1:59 PM by DStone. 9 replies.
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  • Wed, Jan 3 2018 1:58 AM

    • DStone
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    MC 8.10 SD project weirdness

    I just need to see if someone can validate what I'm seeing on my system.

    I'm transferring some laserdiscs to DVD (stuff I own that will never be released on DVD or which have been altered between the LD release and the DVD release). The setup is the LD player connected voa a BMD Intensity pro 4K card. The project is set for NTSC 30i. I capture using the capture tool, and expectt he  ingested media to be NTSC 30i (720x480). However, the media tool shows it to be an image size of 1440x1080 with a raster dimension of 720x480. The encoding is correctly marked as DV 25 411 (NTSC). The LD is connected over S-Video, and there are no conversions in the BMD desktop software.

    Even better, I round trip the video through Resolve with a 30i project and deliver to as 30i using MXF Op-Atom and the Avid NTSC 1:1 8-bit CODEC. This gets written to a separate numbered directory and linked into a new bin. The media in that bin shows up as 1920x1080i, so when dropped into a sequence it gets a FrameFlex applied, forcing another render. If I look at the media created by Resolve using MediaInfo, it's actually SD 720x486 (should be 720x480, but I forgot to change that setting).

    So there's two parts to this; First, can someone with a BMD capture card capture an SD source into an NTSC 30i project and then look with the Media tool to see what are the image and raster sizes.

    Next, using that media, export an AAF to Resolve, create a 30i project (remember to set it to interlaced in the project settings), do any sort of color correction, and then send it back using the AAF option with the format as MXF OP-ATOM, codec NTSC Avid 1:1 (NTSC), resolution 720x480 DV, PAR 4:3, Flat pass OFF. Send it to a new numbered directory in the Avid Media Files directory tree. In MC, create a new bin and drag the msmMMOB.mdb file to the bin to populate it (you'll have to restart MC to get it to create the database file). Check the Media Tool for image and raster sizes.

    A bit of a process to be sure, but something odd is going on and I think it's MC, but I want to make sure.

    DIY quad core I7-4790K, 16Gb, NVidia GTX 970 4GB, Win 10 Pro, MC 8.7, MC 7.x [view my complete system specs]

    Dave S.

  • Sat, Jan 6 2018 8:54 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: MC 8.10 SD project weirdness

     I would be curious if you were to test capturing the clips using the Blackmagic capture software rather than Avid.  Caputure in some codec that will be useful once in Avid. Don't use DNxHR as it does not really support interlace which I assume your sources will have.  Maybe a Blackmagic QT codec?

    Just an idea.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC 8.5.3 / 8.9.4 | OS 10.11.x - various MacPro Towers - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown" QT 10.0... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Sat, Jan 6 2018 11:35 PM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: MC 8.10 SD project weirdness

    Hi Jef,

    Been there, done that, and it read as HD and not SD. I'm at the point where I capture and edit in Resolve, but it can't put out any SD format except MXF (Avid NTSC 1:1 8-bit). I tried making the output using Resolve's AAF exporter with it, and I get an AAF with the appropriate SD MXF files, but MC still reads them as being HD and Squeeze doesn't read the AAF correctly so it immmediately produces a zero-length output file.

    I just updated the BM dekstop software and downloaded new firmware for the Intensity card, but I haven't had a chance to see if they fixed the component input problem (levels too low, a long standing problem). If they have I may try and re-ingest using upscale to HD, edit in HD, and then downscale back to SD. I just don't know how well the noise reduction in Resolve Studio will work with upscaled noise.

    DIY quad core I7-4790K, 16Gb, NVidia GTX 970 4GB, Win 10 Pro, MC 8.7, MC 7.x [view my complete system specs]

    Dave S.

  • Sun, Jan 7 2018 2:56 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: MC 8.10 SD project weirdness

    Well, did you try to capture as Uncompressed?  That is almost the same thing as Avid NTSC 1:1 8bit.

    I have also found that classic import sometimes does a better job of handling SD files than AMA does.  Even with all the issues of classic import.  But that only works if you can make a valid file!!

    Seems like it is getting harder and harder to work with SD all the time.

    I will be upgdrading a system to 8.10 soon and will try a capture.  We use AJA for capture mostly.  Not sure if that will make a difference.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC 8.5.3 / 8.9.4 | OS 10.11.x - various MacPro Towers - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown" QT 10.0... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Sun, Jan 7 2018 3:47 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: MC 8.10 SD project weirdness

    One thought.

    You said it showed image size of 1440 x 1080 with a raster size of 720x480.  That may actually be ok.  Frame flex wants to call SD 1440x1080.  That is a 4x3 aspect ratio.  If the raster size is correct, you should be ok.

    As for what Resolve wrote in the metadata, I am seeing a similar issue.  (See my post about Avid > Resolve > Avid mixed res).

    Not sure what to say at this point.

    I don't think you ever mentioned what your ulitmate need / goal was in this.  Maybe if we knew that, we could come up with more time wasting ideas!

    Good luck,

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC 8.5.3 / 8.9.4 | OS 10.11.x - various MacPro Towers - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown" QT 10.0... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Tue, Jan 9 2018 4:37 PM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: MC 8.10 SD project weirdness

    jef:
    I don't think you ever mentioned what your ulitmate need / goal was in this.
    Actually I did. I'm transferring LaserDiscs to DVDs. There's a lot of stuff that was released on LD which will never be released on DVD or BluRay, and some things which were released on both but editted. And of course, the original 3 Star Wars were only released on LD and VHS. And in some cases, I just don't want to spend a lot of money to re-purchase a complete TV series DVD set when I have the LDs.

    The problem comes down to one of what MC thinks the media is vs what it really is. Using MediaInfo, it's clear that the metadata is 720x480 (or 720x486, depending). Since MC thinks is 1440x1080 (still 4:3), it displays correctly. But then I want to export using same as source, which ideally should not require any rendering (except for whatever edits I've made). Here's where it falls down. Because it thinks the image size is different, it re-renders the entire timeline uneccesarily. I'm already dealing with media that required a noise cleanup. I don't wnat another render, nor should I have to wait for another unecessary render.

    I've reached the point where I'm now exporting to QT as a DV file. Since I'm going to get a render no matter what I do, I decided to go to the one format that actually works with my good MPEG-2 encoder.

    DIY quad core I7-4790K, 16Gb, NVidia GTX 970 4GB, Win 10 Pro, MC 8.7, MC 7.x [view my complete system specs]

    Dave S.

  • Fri, Jan 12 2018 8:14 PM In reply to

    • curiosity
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    Re: MC 8.10 SD project weirdness

    This is part of the errors introduced after 8.4.5. (http://community.avid.com/forums/t/160531.aspx?PageIndex=1)

    From what I gather, Avid has stopped all development of SD/DV leaving us with a reduced set of options for SD work. The 1440 x 1080 is actually a 16:9 format. It's Sony's HDV format using an anamorphic 1440 to stretch it to 1920. I do quite a bit of work still in DV, and although it reports and lists the files as 1440 (or 1920 if you import from a file based source) its actually working in 720x486.

    i7-5820(x99), 64GB, Win 8.1, GTX 1080ti [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Jan 13 2018 4:37 PM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: MC 8.10 SD project weirdness

    I have to admit it, I actually gave up on MC for this. My workflow is now BMD Media Express for capture->FootageStudio 4K for noise reduction->Liquid for editing->Cinemacraft Basic for MPEG encoding->SoundForge for AC3 encoding->DVDLab Pro 2 for disc authoring->CDburnerXP for DVD burning.

    To say that this is ridiculous is something of an understatement. I should be able to do everything above in at most 2 applications (disc authoring is most definitely not part of the editing process). But I should be able to ingest, edit, cleanup, and produce the MPEG and AC3 media files in 1 application. Which I'm now trying to do in LightWorks.

    DIY quad core I7-4790K, 16Gb, NVidia GTX 970 4GB, Win 10 Pro, MC 8.7, MC 7.x [view my complete system specs]

    Dave S.

  • Sun, Jan 14 2018 9:55 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: MC 8.10 SD project weirdness

    I am not dismissing the issues you raise or what you need to do.  All I will say is that as a development area, DVD really is dead.  For any company to dump money there would be folly.

    All the tools you mentioned have been around for years and work well for what you did.  Well, other than Liquid. Big Smile Seems like you choose a solid path.

    But I do not like the idea of Avid slowly letting SD workflow and tools die.  We can not abandon years and years of important visual history.

    I just finished a show for PBS about Mister Rogers.  Guess what the major format of THAT show was.  And due to what I consider the low quality of FrameFlex when upconverting, I did that in other tools.  But thank heavens Avid finally put a usable field swap tool in the toolbox.  That saved me hours prepping badly captured footage.

    Just my opinion.

    Jef

     

     

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC 8.5.3 / 8.9.4 | OS 10.11.x - various MacPro Towers - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown" QT 10.0... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Tue, Jan 16 2018 1:59 PM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: MC 8.10 SD project weirdness

    jef:
    I am not dismissing the issues you raise or what you need to do.  All I will say is that as a development area, DVD really is dead.
    DVD is still the most widely distributed physical media. There are lots of households which still use a DVD player connected to their HD TVs, not to mention the millions of computers with DVD drives. This is why many movies are still sold in a dual pack (DVD and BluRay).

    It's not a question of future development; it's one of maintaining what they have. When I do events, I usually end up producing both DVD and BluRay just because of the number of people who request the DVDs.

    DIY quad core I7-4790K, 16Gb, NVidia GTX 970 4GB, Win 10 Pro, MC 8.7, MC 7.x [view my complete system specs]

    Dave S.

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