Latest post Tue, Dec 4 2018 10:41 PM by BDavis24. 9 replies.
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  • Tue, Apr 24 2018 4:24 PM

    • JesusPM
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    BWF Metadata Missing - ProTools Conform Issues

    Hello,

    I'm a film assistant editor and I just finished turning over a feature film to our sound department, but unfortunately they can't relink all the audio on their end (only some clips). I sent them both AAFs and EDLs for each reel but none of these method work.

    Our production crew used 2 different audio recorders: a Zaxcom and a Zoom F8. We've learnt that the Broadcast Wave Audio files generated by the Zoom F8 are be the ones that can't be relinked in ProTools (the BWF from the Zaxcom relink just fine).

    All the media was imported into Media Composer the same way (using legacy Import), but depending on the reocrder, the files came into MC with different information:

    BWF from the Zaxcom shows TapeScene and Take information (although no Source File data):

    Zaxcom Audio Metadata in Avid MC 8.4

    BWF from the Zoom F8 come in without TapeScene and Take information (but with Source File metadata):

    Zoom F8 Audio Metadata in Avid

     

    It's important to nocite that if I open the original audio files (from either the Zaxcom or Zoom) in Wave Agent, the app shows me the propper metadata in either case.

    Also, importing the orginal audio files from both recorders straight into ProTools works well: the metadata from both the Zaxcom and Zoom is displayed in the same columns: SoundrollScene and Take.

    Audio Metadata in Pro Tools

     

    So this is clearly a Media Composer issue. For some reason, MC is dealing with the BWF from each recorder differently, resulting in inconsistent AAFs/EDLs. I guess Avid has to work either with Tape or Source File but it can't deal with both at the same time? I really don't know how to overcome this problem and allow our sound team to relink the AAFs/EDLs from Media Composer to the original BWF from the Zoom recorder.

    As a workaround, I tried to add manually Soundroll metadata in Media Composer for all audio master clips from both recorders, but that didn't work either (even though my EDLs were created using Soundroll).

    Please, if anyone can provide any help, I would really appreciate it.

    Jesús

  • Tue, Apr 24 2018 6:03 PM In reply to

    Re: BWF Metadata Missing - ProTools Conform Issues

    How is the sound team relinking? Inside PT or are they using third party tools like EdiLoad or Conformalizer?

    Different vendors use different metadata naming conventions and can use BEXT and/or iXML. So They maau need to use two different linking methods. Although inside PT they should be able to link using TapeID and timecode (scene/slate/take are not commonly used to conform) and both appear to be present on both the Zaxcom and the Zoom clips.

    And yes, in MC, a clip can either have a Source File or a Tape, not both. 

    And in my experience, PT os pretty much deaf to any metadata that was added in MC. It just seems to ignore a whole bunch of stuff that does live in the AAF. So that’s why your SoundRoll solution might not be working.

     

    Not sure this helps you a lot, though.

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Apr 24 2018 6:12 PM In reply to

    • JesusPM
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    Re: BWF Metadata Missing - ProTools Conform Issues

    Many Thanks for your quick reply, Job!

    The sound team is trying to relink inside ProTools (no third party tools are being used). I don't know much about PT so I can't give them any advice about this.

    I will ask them to try to relink by TapeID and timecode if possible. That metadata did come through, so let's see if it works. Fingers crossed!

  • Tue, Apr 24 2018 6:19 PM In reply to

    Re: BWF Metadata Missing - ProTools Conform Issues

    Cool, keep us posted.

    P.S. In PT they can set Match Criteria when expanding the Field Recorder Tracks. They may also need to bring in the original BWAVs beforehand (although I thought for current versions they can specify search locations). https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2015/12/4/free-tutorial-how-to-use-the-pro-tools-hd-field-recorder-workflow

     

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Apr 25 2018 12:58 PM In reply to

    • JesusPM
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    Re: BWF Metadata Missing - ProTools Conform Issues

    Still, no luck here...

    Our sound guy tells me he can't relink based on TapeID and Timecode because most of the clips from the Zoom F8 show up in ProTools without Original Time Stamp, as you can see in the following screenshots (the clips from the Zoom F8 are the ones below the red line).

    If anybody else has another solution, please let me know. Thanks!

  • Wed, Apr 25 2018 7:59 PM In reply to

    Re: BWF Metadata Missing - ProTools Conform Issues

    So the core issue is not metadata missing in the AAF but metadata from the MXF’s not showing up in PT, right? No conform without timecode/timestamp, obviously. Quite weird, as MC creates these under the hood, automatically, upon import.

    Did you send an AAF with embedded media or with a an ‘external’ (linked) AAF? Was the audio media consolidated? Can you try an export without consolidating and without embedding and see if those clips show up in PT with timestamps?

    Do those Zoom clips show up with timecode in MC? Do they show a timestamp in Wave Agent (not sure if that reads MXF)?

    Can you try to Batch Re-import one of the ‘faulty’ zoom clips in Media Composer and see if that MXF does show a timestamp in PT?

    Did you originally import all the audio channels for each clip inside MC? If so, they might just skip the conform for those clips and expand the regions to all channels from the Avid media (this requires you send them all Avid sound mediafiles). But if the timestamps are missing, that may not work either.

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Apr 26 2018 8:44 AM In reply to

    • JesusPM
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    Re: BWF Metadata Missing - ProTools Conform Issues

    Thanks for your input, Job. Let me answer to your questions:

    - The AAF was exported with embedded media (consolidated with handles).

    - I tried exporting a Linked AAF (without media) but that didn't work at all.

    - Yes, the Zoom clips show up with propper timecode in MC (check out the Avid Bin screenshots I uploaded earlier).

    - I'm not sure if doing a Batch Re-Import would solve the issue... It is clear to me that the Zoom recorder does not add BEXT metadata (only iXML, which is not supported over Import). If you AMA Link the Zoom audio files, they will come in with all the propper metadata, just like the Zaxcom files.

    So here is the solution I've come up with:

    - In MC, I brought all the original audio over AMA Link.

    - Then I tried to Relink my reels to the selected AMA Linked clips, but obviously that workflow didn't work 100%. Some clips were relinked to the AMA Linked audio, while others remained linked to the MXF (hidding the Avid MediaFiles folder didn't work either).

    - So in the end, I exported an audio EDL, making sure that the Reel information was present. In order for that to work, I previously had to:

    a) Copy the Tape info in the Soundroll column for all the Zaxcom clips.

    b) Manually enter the Tape info in the Soundroll  column for all the Zoom clips.

    - Then, I Imported the audio EDLs into a new Avid Project where I only had the AMA Linked audio from both recorders.

    - After Decomposing the sequences, I was able to relink that to the AMA Linked clips.

    - I finally exported an AAF with embedded audio, and ProTools was able to relink it back to the original audio files.

    For many years, I keep reading everywhere that the best way to work with Broadcast Wave Audio files in Media Composer is via legacy Import... But the truth is that in this case, all this issues could have been avoided by going the AMA Link route (which is the only way to get iXML metadata in MC), and then Consolidate those files for easier media management. The problem is that Slipping audio by Perforations is still not supported with AMA Linked files, as far as I know. So no matter which workflow you choose, with some recorders you either run into limitations in MC or conform problems in ProTools.

     

  • Thu, Apr 26 2018 8:51 AM In reply to

    Re: BWF Metadata Missing - ProTools Conform Issues

    Thanks for the update. 

    However, since MC did see the proper timecode upon traditional import, I’m not so sure the Bext vs iXML is the issue. The weird thing is that PT does not see the metadata in the MXF mediafile, even if MC does.

    very weird. Thanks for sharing the detailed report!

    Media Composer /w Symphony option | PT-HD | Win7Pro64 HP | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 | Nitris DX | Artist Mix & Transport & Color | AJA T-Tap | Decklink... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Oct 8 2018 11:12 PM In reply to

    • BDavis24
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    • Joined on Fri, Jun 25 2010
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    Re: BWF Metadata Missing - ProTools Conform Issues

    FYI, I submitted a similar issue to Zoom tech support and was told that they are working on a firmware for the ZoomF8 which should prevent this issue from occuring with MC in the future. 

    The Zoom F8 is supposed to embedd iXML and BEXT metadata into the Wav files it creates.  For some reason this BEXT chunk meta data is embedded in a manner which MC does not like.  Hence MC does not properly ingest the BEXT Meta data on a traditional import.  Zoom did not go into greater details but they did explain to me that they are aware of the issue and are working on firmware update which should solve this problem. 

    If you have zoom F8 material, the current work around is to use the Link to AMA import workflow and then transcode the AMA clips to Wav. Then sync the dailies using the transcoded clips. 

    Hopefully the zoom firmware fix is released soon.  

  • Tue, Dec 4 2018 10:41 PM In reply to

    • BDavis24
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    • Joined on Fri, Jun 25 2010
    • Posts 24
    • Points 340

    Re: BWF Metadata Missing - ProTools Conform Issues

    Zoom  has just released firmware 5.10 for the Zoom F8 which fixes the issue with MC! 

     

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