Latest post Thu, Dec 6 2018 4:02 PM by Isaac T.. 32 replies.
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  • Wed, Nov 21 2018 3:58 PM In reply to

    • Isaac T.
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    Re: Avid DNxHD/DNxHR not compatible with macOS beyond Mojave?

    @Dom: I'm just reporting. Apple's informed developers on QuickTime's demise (the API, not the container) for some time.

    Marianna:
     I say lets wait and see what Jeremy at Avid hears from Apple once they are back from Holiday next week.

    @Marianna: that much is clear. Apple needs to clear up this announcement. I'm sure they will.

    Bringing it back:

    • Beware of stories like No Film School's.

    • Tell Apple you're concerned and want to know more. I know they're seeing it on social media.

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  • Wed, Nov 21 2018 8:08 PM In reply to

    • Fish
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    Re: Avid DNxHD/DNxHR not compatible with macOS beyond Mojave?

    Our company is very much worried about legacy codec support. A great many projects we work on rely on older footage encoded with DNxHR/HD. So we anxiously await Avid's assessment. (Poor Jeremy, coming back to THIS)

    Is it isolted to QT use? The articles I've read imply any use of the codec at all, not just quicktime support.

    If it is isolated to quicktime, that's manageable (although ALL our masters will need to be converted)

    Is there a workflow for mastering and archiving that Avid recommends that circumvents the use of Quicktime all together??

    If so, I'd like to read it.

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  • Wed, Nov 21 2018 8:31 PM In reply to

    Re: Avid DNxHD/DNxHR not compatible with macOS beyond Mojave?

    Fish:
    Is it isolted to QT use? The articles I've read imply any use of the codec at all, not just quicktime support.

     

    It seems anything that depends on 32-bit apps and/or 32 bit component of an app (aka codecs), which makes sense because macOS will drop any support for 32-bit legacy codes.

     

    Fish:
    Is there a workflow for mastering and archiving that Avid recommends that circumvents the use of Quicktime all together??

     

    You have time. Mojave was just released. I'm sure Avid and others will have something by the next macOS.

     

    The insulting part of this whole thing is if Apple wanted to move developers and users to AVFoundation 64 bit in 2013, they would have allowed 3rd party codecs in QT X. But they didn't. They intentionally locked you out and try to force ProRes and H.264 (which they originally developed).

     

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  • Thu, Nov 22 2018 6:18 AM In reply to

    • luca.mg
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    Re: Avid DNxHD/DNxHR not compatible with macOS beyond Mojave?

    The insulting part (also) is aggressively pushing ProRes (and the Mac), being it a closed and proprietary file format, while DNX is open and futureproof. I think this dropping support for 32 bit is marketing BS: a video file is a video file, it's not 32 bit nor 64, it's the software used to handle it which is either 32 or 64 bit. The first outcome of this move is people over the internet assuming that everything not ProRes is 32 bit and obsolete, whereas ProRes, with its cleverly chosen "pro" in the name, it's the only professional choice. While a "smart" commercial war move, a big damage for the end users, and profoundly uncorrect. How can people keep having faith in Apple is beyond my understanding. You can kill 32 bit code in Your environment, while keeping the ability to read "obsolete" file formats via new 64 bit software, or You can try forcing ProRes on us all. I welcome the dropping of 32 bit code, but I need to deal with many very popular so called obsolete file formats for years to come, and I have to be able to do it with no need to convert everything to ProRes today, just in case. Can You imagine devoting time and resources to convert terabytes of "obsolete" files to the Apple file format of choice just to make sure to be able to use them, either now or, most of all, in the future? The consumer guy will keep watching his wedding video with VLC, while we won't be able to use those MP4 or MTS or DNxHD files, thank You Apple. Time for Avid to open its code and in turn embed some open source code? I think of ffmpeg...

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  • Tue, Dec 4 2018 3:29 PM In reply to

    Re: Avid DNxHD/DNxHR not compatible with macOS beyond Mojave?

    Marianna, you asked for a nudge on this.    Done!  (Thank you.)

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  • Tue, Dec 4 2018 6:16 PM In reply to

    Re: Avid DNxHD/DNxHR not compatible with macOS beyond Mojave?

    Avid's offical statement on this topic:

    http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/Compatibility/The-future-of-Avid-DNx-on-the-Apple-platform

    Avid has released a Knowledge Base article that says...

     

    This article contains Avid's response to this Apple article: About legacy media in Final Cut Pro X

    Apple has released an article related to the future of codec support with Apple FCP X and identified that DNxHD and DNxHR will not be supported in future releases of that product. DNxHD and DNxHR within the QuickTime wrapper have been traditionally supported by various products on the MacOS platform either through native integration by various MacOS based applications or through the plugin mechanism that the QuickTime 7 ™ libraries provided.
     
    With the deprecation of the QuickTime 7 libraries, support for these formats is now based on each media application supporting these codecs natively using 64 bit compliant and performance-tuned libraries available through Avid, or each application vendors own implementation using the SMPTE VC-3  standards specifications that the DNx family of codecs are based on. 
     
    As such, for customers using Apple Computers and MacOS, this announcement does not affect Pro Tools and Media Composer, any other products that have chosen to implement DNxHD and DNxHR natively in the aforementioned manner, or, DNxHD/HR supported through MXF wrappers.  DNxHD, DNxHR, Pro Tools and Media Composer will continue to be supported and will be compatible with the current and future release of Mac OS. We will continue to improve or introduce new features for DNxHD and DNxHR, proven by the recent release of DNxUncompressed option, and will support these new features on various operating systems, including MacOS.

    Hope that helps..

    Mike

  • Tue, Dec 4 2018 6:48 PM In reply to

    • Isaac T.
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    Re: Avid DNxHD/DNxHR not compatible with macOS beyond Mojave?

    Thanks, Mike!

    @Moderators: could this be pinned? Thanks!

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  • Tue, Dec 4 2018 7:40 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: Avid DNxHD/DNxHR not compatible with macOS beyond Mojave?

    Mike - you got to this quicker than I did....

    I will pin this.

    marianna

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  • Tue, Dec 4 2018 8:23 PM In reply to

    • Fish
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    Re: Avid DNxHD/DNxHR not compatible with macOS beyond Mojave?

    I guess I'm just confused and worried about limitations. If quicktime player won't open it, will VLC? Can we use other 3rd programs (Adobe Media Encoder, for example) to transcode from it? Will Apple's lack of support from an OS somehow result in us not being able to play legacy exported master files that have .mov on the end? What can we expect? What should we prepare for?

     

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  • Tue, Dec 4 2018 9:00 PM In reply to

    • luca.mg
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    Re: Avid DNxHD/DNxHR not compatible with macOS beyond Mojave?

    Apple dropped support for "legacy" codecs (everything but ProRes) quite a while ago, have You ever noticed that double click on most QT files starts a conversion before actually playing back the file? That means to me that the system is very capable to deal with all sorts of codecs, but Mr Apple is forcing users to switch to ProRes. End of support for legacy file formats is fake news, the truth is Apple is "marketing" its own codecs. That said, third parties can support wichever format they wish.

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    peace luca

  • Tue, Dec 4 2018 10:10 PM In reply to

    • Isaac T.
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    Re: Avid DNxHD/DNxHR not compatible with macOS beyond Mojave?

    @All: here are some noteworthy excerpts from that KB article:

    With the deprecation of the QuickTime 7 libraries...

    The QuickTime 7 libraries (e.g. Application Programming Interfaces or API's) were called QTKit:

    https://developer.apple.com/documentation/qtkit

    If you click here, you'll see QTKit – the framework used by programmers for QuickTime – was flagged as deprecated in OS X 10.9. That means Apple signaled QTKit's demise back in 2013.

    If you read these articles from seasoned Apple developer Philip Hodgetts:

    • http://www.philiphodgetts.com/2013/11/quicktime-is-deprecated-what-does-that-mean-in-practice/
    http://www.philiphodgetts.com/2011/02/what-is-apple-doing-with-quicktime/

    You'll see rumblings of QTKit's demise even further back.

    ...support for these formats is now based on the each media application supporting these codecs natively using 64 bit compliant and performance-tuned libraries available through Avid, or each application vendors own implementation using the SMPTE VC-3 standards specifications that the DNx family of codecs are based on.

    Apple is shifting the work of supporting these codecs and media to third-party developers. Avid and others will have to develop their own parsers and playback support for DNx codecs. These future toolkits can't (and won't) rely on QTKit. Apparently, many codecs currently do, like DNx.

    If you're worried about playback, I'm sure VLC won't jump ship on that future version of macOS. If you wanna see what the future could be like, download and install IINA:

    https://lhc70000.github.io/iina/features/

    Opens everything, including DNx-based MXF's.

    As such, for customers using Apple Computers and MacOS, this announcement does not affect Pro Tools and Media Composer, any other products that have chosen to implement DNxHD and DNxHR natively in the aforementioned manner, or, DNxHD/HR supported through MXF wrappers.

    If you're an Avid user on macOS, sounds like Avid's got you.

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  • Tue, Dec 4 2018 10:17 PM In reply to

    • Isaac T.
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    Re: Avid DNxHD/DNxHR not compatible with macOS beyond Mojave?

    @All: a couple more things.

    1. Again, QuickTime The Container (.MOV) is not going away. Just QTKit. (Google or DuckDuckGo "AVFoundation" to read more about QTKit's replacement.)

    2. It's possible to write these future parsers with ffmpeg.

    https://ffmpeg.org

    I asked Jon Chappell at Digital Rebellion, and Don Melton (ex-Apple, founded WebKit, now makes custom ffmpeg workflows for fun) about it. Here's what they said:

    https://twitter.com/digitalreb/status/1070028422137565184
    https://twitter.com/donmelton/status/1070046805335801856

    So if worse came to worst, future support would be possible through ffmpeg if Avid, or anyone else, wanted to leverage it.

    3. To see a list of codecs currently marked as "legacy" in macOS:

    a. Launch Terminal (/Macintosh HD/Applications/Utilties).
    b. Copy and paste this command into your Terminal session: qtdefaults read InstalledLegacyVideoCodecs
    c. Hit [Return].

    Good night, Rochester!

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  • Tue, Dec 4 2018 10:21 PM In reply to

    • Fish
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    Re: Avid DNxHD/DNxHR not compatible with macOS beyond Mojave?

    Reassurring. Thank you. 

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  • Tue, Dec 4 2018 10:45 PM In reply to

    Re: Avid DNxHD/DNxHR not compatible with macOS beyond Mojave?

    The problem that I see is that every solution or component is an island or castle. Adobe CC will add DNxHR but Apple may not add it to FCP X. Apple may add Cineform but Avid may not.

    So each developer writes their own solution for their own application only. Previously, Avid would release Meridien or DNxHD codec and any application that can work with MOV is able to process these files. Potentially in the future, not anymore.

    Companies like Cineform that created their own codec are now in the most compromised position. Blackmagic RAW may be stymied because of this. Will Apple support a codec that directly competes with ProRes RAW? I hope.

    It is the anthesis of what QT 7 and FCP 7 was based on. An open ecosystem that allowed the media to be exchanged easily.

     

    FFMPEG is OK. It is a pain tracking which version worked the best with a particular application.

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  • Tue, Dec 4 2018 11:06 PM In reply to

    • Fish
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    Re: Avid DNxHD/DNxHR not compatible with macOS beyond Mojave?

    And that's where my concern comes from. Even now, it's hard to get the codecs to behave. VLC will open one, but AME will not. After Effects will happily process one, but not something else. Sometimes an Avid codec export will open in an application, sometimes it won't. And that's TODAY(!) The next OS will make this game even harder.

    Apple betting everything on ProRes doesn't seem like dropping floppy disks or a headphone jack. Understandably, those bits of hardware needed a shake up. This is SOFTware and should be more maliable. I think Apple forcing a codec choice may bite them in the butt. It reminds me of the Soviets building their railroad tracks to a different gauge so they couldn't be invaded. It worked well as a strategy .... until they were doing the invading.

    I feels there's an opening for a third-party out there to shove an agnostic engine into a system (PC or Mac) and everyone can talk to it. Ideally, this should have been Apple just dusting off Quicktime's code or creating somehting entirely new (which they may yet do...but it doesn't 'smell' like it). Seriously...how hard would it have been to create a NEW 64bit only 'Quicktime' for everyone to jump on board with? They developped their own coding language, for gosh sakes.

    So, perhaps Avid (which is itself a platform that straddles two ecosystems) should develop an app that acts like a Babelfish - effortlessly recombobulating one codec into another.

    I dunno. I don't know anything.

    Decades ago I used to say, "VHS tapes are the worst way to show and share our work". Then along came the internet. Now there are so many rotten choices to choose from.

     

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