This is my setup:

MC2022.12
Blackmagic Desktop Video 11.6 (see different thread as to why I'm using this version)
Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K card
PAL/NTSC client monitor

For client monitoring, when I change the project settings to a PAL/NTSC progressive (23.976p, 24p, 25p) and play the footage, the client monitor shows a vertically squashed image with black bars top and bottom. I don't know what the aspect ratio is as it looks really odd - it seems to be about a third of the screen height, in the centre of the screen. If I change the project settings to PAL/NTSC interlaced (25i/30i), the aspect ratio of the image on the client monitor is correct i.e. if the source/composer window has a 4:3 image, that's what you get on the client monitor. However, if the footage is 4:3 anamorphic, and you set the composer window to 16:9, the client monitor stills shows the anamorphic version. I suppose the client monitor should show the 16:9 version too. Perhaps that's another issue.

It does not matter what the resolution of the source material is - it could be SD or even RED footage. It doesn't matter what or where you set the aspect ratio to in MC, or what settings you use for the source footage in FrameFlex, whether it's the source or composer window you play from, or what setting you change for the Intensity Pro (it's very limited, anyway), or what PAL/NTSC client monitor you use. The only thing that causes this is if you select one of the progressive settings.

The other thing is that the footage displays correctly on the client monitor when you load the footage and scrub but as soon as you hit the play button, you get this rather strangle, vertically squashed, image.

I've tried it on Davinci Resolve 18 and it works fine there: change the timeline to a PAL/NTSC once and it plays in the correct aspect ratio on the client monitor. It seems to be something MC is doing. I can't remember the last MC version that this worked correctly, unfortunately.

Have had that Intensity 4k card for years. Works fine - mostly 25P  projects mind.

Likely to be the display - is it a monitor or a TV?  Switch off all the auto functions and try a manual aspect ratio setting on the TV. Does it expect a PsF feed?

mtahir:

if the footage is 4:3 anamorphic, and you set the composer window to 16:9, the client monitor stills shows the anamorphic version.

That's how it was in the Standard Def days. Only specific setups would add 16x9 flags to signals that would trigger TV's to switch between 4:3 and 16:9 (I recall rigging a European SCART input so it would accept YUV with a 16x9 flag added), but AFAIK the pro gear always required a manual change.

mtahir:

hen I change the project settings to a PAL/NTSC progressive (23.976p, 24p, 25p) and play the footage, the client monitor shows a vertically squashed image

My best guess is that this is a monitor that does not accept 25P over its inputs. Many TV's won't accept 25p over HDMI, and traditional pro gear (especially with SDI inputs) required 25PsF to be sent to the monitor. If you open BMD Desktop Video and open the settings, the Video Output tab should have an option listed under SDI Output, called "1080p HD and 2K", giving you the option to send out either 1080p or 1080PsF. The latter is essentially the same as an interlaced signal, but marked as progressive, so splitting each progressive frame into two segments (with no motion difference, of course).

Thanks for the replies.

One is a Marshall PAL/NTSC 4:3 monitor with analog BNC inputs/outputs and the other monitor allows analog PAL/NTSC (BNC) inputs, from composite to component, and a separate HDMI input. The monitor also allows aspect ratio switching on either set of inputs. I'm only using the Composite Video/S-Video outputs from the Intensity, not HDMI or SDI.

The same setup works with DaVinci Resolve, with a 25P project, so it's not the hardware.

 

So, what happens if you toggle the output to 25PsF anyway? I'm 90% sure that's the issue here. I don't think any monitor will accept 25P (non-sF) over analog inputs. Note that even traditional HDCAM decks sent out SD downconversions as PsF, not P.

mtahir:

The same setup works with DaVinci Resolve, with a 25P project

Are you saying Resolve _does_ trigger the 16:9 switching on those monitors? And are you sure you're outputting a PAL signal from Resolve?

Job ter Burg:

So, what happens if you toggle the output to 25PsF anyway? I'm 90% sure that's the issue here. I don't think any monitor will accept 25P (non-sF) over analog inputs. Note that even traditional HDCAM decks sent out SD downconversions as PsF, not P.

I don't have a 25PsF option anywhere as far as I can tell. When it comes to changing the video settings for the client monitor via MC, all you get is the Blackmagic Desktop Video GUI pop-up. You can't change much in there, to be honest. When I used to use the Matrox Mini, there were a lot more options.

Job ter Burg:

mtahir:

The same setup works with DaVinci Resolve, with a 25P project

Are you saying Resolve _does_ trigger the 16:9 switching on those monitors? And are you sure you're outputting a PAL signal from Resolve?

No, Resolve doesn't trigger 16:9 switching on the monitors. What you get is an anamophic 4:3, whether you scrub or play. You can then switch to 16:9 via the monitor itself, if the monitor has the option.

With MC, only scrubbing the video displays correctly on the monitor; once you hit play, it gets squashed vertically into something that looks more like a 2.35:1!

I can only conclude it's MC because why does it display correctly when scrubbing but not when playing?

mtahir:

 

I don't have a 25PsF option anywhere as far as I can tell.

 

I don't own the Intensity card, but I'm fairly sure these settings are similar across the BMD product line.

Open Desktop Video Setup. Click the menu button.

 

Then under Video Output, scroll down.

 

Not 100% sure this is the culprit, but I'd definitely give it a go to see if anything changes. I know it says SDI output and 1080p/2K, but still. For instance, on my Decklink Mini Monitor, it does also affect the HDMI output signal.

mtahir:

the footage displays correctly on the client monitor when you load the footage and scrub but as soon as you hit the play button, you get this rather strangle, vertically squashed, image.

That does seem to indicate that there may be some flag in the image itself, that MC does not strip, and the monitor reacts to. Wouldn't know which flag would cause it to squash the image, though.

What happens if you crop or resize the image? I mean just as a test.

mtahir:

I'm only using the Composite Video/S-Video outputs from the Intensity, not HDMI or SDI.

As Job suggested you will need to try PsF, in Desktop Video settings. Older monitors will not accept from BMD cards a true progessive signal, over HDMI either, even if they happily do from consumer devices, such as a Bluray player or streaming device. In your case you are outputting SD Pal over composite/S-Video and this can often cause aspect ratio issues. There is no flag in analogue signals. You could try PsF with HDMI - the signal will be effectively component/SDI quality and any flag may have a better chance of being recognised.

Job ter Burg:

Not 100% sure this is the culprit, but I'd definitely give it a go to see if anything changes. I know it says SDI output and 1080p/2K, but still. For instance, on my Decklink Mini Monitor, it does also affect the HDMI output signal.

Unfortunately, I don't have those SDI options. My card has 2 HDMI ports (in/out) and a port for the breakout cable.

Job ter Burg:

That does seem to indicate that there may be some flag in the image itself, that MC does not strip, and the monitor reacts to. Wouldn't know which flag would cause it to squash the image, though.

What happens if you crop or resize the image? I mean just as a test.

I tried all the resize stuff but it doesn't make any difference to the output, unfortunately.

Mercer:

As Job suggested you will need to try PsF, in Desktop Video settings. Older monitors will not accept from BMD cards a true progessive signal, over HDMI either, even if they happily do from consumer devices, such as a Bluray player or streaming device. In your case you are outputting SD Pal over composite/S-Video and this can often cause aspect ratio issues. There is no flag in analogue signals. You could try PsF with HDMI - the signal will be effectively component/SDI quality and any flag may have a better chance of being recognised.

I went back to Resolve to double-check the results and it works as it should. The timeline is set to PAL/25P and it outputs correctly - scrub or play. Not only that, but you can also select 16:9 or 4:3 (anamorphic) for the timeline settings and the monitor responds accordingly! That really eliminates the hardware as the possible problem.

The other thing that I discovered with MC is that if I set the quality menu to 10-bit on a PAL/25P project, when you play, and the output gets squashed, there is a green band at the top of the video. It's not there in the other quality modes.

If Resolve (v18) can do it with the same hardware, then this points to an MC issue.

 

mtahir:

The other thing that I discovered with MC is that if I set the quality menu to 10-bit on a PAL/25P project, when you play, and the output gets squashed, there is a green band at the top of the video. It's not there in the other quality modes.

If Resolve (v18) can do it with the same hardware, then this points to an MC issue.

Did you try HDMI, for Avid?

Mercer:

Did you try HDMI, for Avid?

Yes, I just tested it and it works under HDMI with my dual input (analog/HDMI) monitor. The aspect ratio is correct when scrubbing or playing.

But... that still doesn't explain why, when using PAL or NTSC, interlaced or progressive, 4:3 or 16:9, it works perfectly with Resolve but not MC.

The Blackmasgic Intensity Pro 4K card does not have the PsF functionality available on it.